So, continuing on that top lane discussion - here's one of my key thoughts (previous idea anyway):  take champs that provide something useful even if you are a pisser.  To me, that generally boiled down to liss (moreso back in her op days) and gnar.  There, you have champs that are VERY good at escaping ganks safely.  They have relatively safe/easy farm and very solid potential of picking up a kill with ganks.  Not only that, they have exceptional mid/late game utility even if they are having a so so... and even if they have bad game from time to time (bad not meaning I feed the crap out of my lane... bad meaning I got whooped and then played safe...).  Honestly, those 2 are the absolutely best imo at maintaining usefulness.  Weak split push, but solid and durable, and good at team fights.  Very good mobility

Anyway, with those champs, the general idea was do your bit in lane.  Look to roam if you get a nice setup to snowball.  Look to tp early mid to lock down kills in bot or mid if there is a good setup.  In my mind, a good top with those champs would win lane and quickly rotate to team fighting.  Major focus on trying to get into team fights though.

So, I guess my thoughts on those 2 are the same, but I find them weaker now in general.  Liss keeps all her pros as before, but is more squishy.  The gnar skill cap simply has gone up due to the nerfs.  He's still quite viable imo, but not a good pick for me currently without a lot of practice to adapt properly to the nerfs from some time back.  

So, now my focus is on carries out of top lane.  People talk about support carrying.  Fuck that.  I'm talking about the guy 1v5ing.  That fella running around like a jackass and the enemy team scatters.  Champs that dominate their lane and are beasts, or turn into avg players, or turn into crap and drag the team down with them.  Some downsides to this ofc.. also thinking about split pushes, etc.  more in a bit...

also - song I've heard plenty - never seen the vid.  Somewhat mesmerizing.  

off to bed - will continue thoughts tomorrow...

short summary of that - very new, MUCH more strategic concept of top lane.  

I want to add that I don't think I'm particularly good top lane atm.  I'm not trying to get you folks "on my level" or w/e bs.  I'm looking to describe the evolution of my top lane game.  Before things were so much more simple.  Now, its more complicated with me currently understanding what I need to do, but slowly adapting.   I think as I apply what I've learned, I'll actually become a pretty decent power house top lane as opposed to a safe pick top that is useful even if trash.  

oh and patch going out 6/24.  

Well that's false. You see, "cap" can stand for one of two things:

 1. Capacity

 2. Cap (as in the top of a tube or a gallon of milk)

Note that both of these mean the same thing: ones you maximize a particular champions "skill capacity" any additional skill you acquire just... overflows. You can't fit any more skill.  It's a limited.

Nerfs a champion reduces what you can do with a champion. It makes them HARDER (eg, it takes more work for the same rewards), but a champion that isn't weaker isn't able to do anything it wasn't able to do before.

What you mean is that Gnar has a higher skill FLOOR since he requires additional initial skill input in order to do what he used to do: because he is weaker and therefore harder to play.

Now, there are very specific exceptions. You could argue that reducing Olaf's base Armor by 1 makes him EASIER to play in the Jungle, since that makes him take more damage. More damage -> more AS -> faster clears.

In a weird, perverse semantic argument, a harder + weaker champion requires additional skill to play "to THE MAX" and therefore requires additional skill to make specific outplays that would have been trivial before, so more skill fits into your "tube" and the capacity goes up. i disagree: a perfect player can do a trivial thing on a champion just like they can do a hard thing on a champion. An imperfect player who couldn't do hard things before, still can't do hard things now. Their skill capacity didn't change: what they could do with their skill capacity changed.

--

That said, Gnar is mostly difficult to play because he can no longer reliably get every CS from every wave the moment he gets a Brutalizer, so he no longer gets his guaranteed scaling from gold (same problem Zed has: reliable, mostly-costless, difficult-to-stop waveclear). CD on Boomerang is too long, base damage reduced too much.

He also has the same problem as Teemo where if you fuck up against the "beatdown" you pretty much instantly die. One of the reasons the Black Cleaver > Frozen Mallet build is so good. Which, btw, is much more of a "carry" build than what you see in LCS.

He's also much more difficult in the same way Yasuo got much more difficult: Jarvan got nerfed.

bleh - i'll comment then bugger off.  I don't give a fug about semantics - don't waste time if you actually get what I'm saying plz.  Gnar lost some of the power he had before, and the window is more limited requiring more skillful play to use it properly.  I call that requiring a higher skill cap.  You can call it what you like.  That's my take.  

tl;dr - semantics = akljhjsdajklsdhaskldjasljdakdsajldklasjladkasjldjk - who cares.  let me know if you understand what I'm saying then discuss if you are interested.  thx!  I'm much more interested discussing this stuff than arguing about alkjsdklasjdaslkdajskdjl

I'm not really the highest skill cap player but sometimes I manage to make a high skill cap play when I'm playing a high skill cap champ by skill capping a low health opponent that's getting away.

cool stuff and thanks for taking the time to bust my balls and distract from what I'm talking about. I really don't appreciate having to extrapolate about really simple things for the sake getting back to the obvious - yes, we all know what each person is talking about, but its fun to troll about semantics and apparently insult me by treating me like I'm a moron.  Sorry if its clear what I'm talking about but I sometimes use the wrong word.  Be a dick elsewhere if you must.  Please have a conversation about the topic if you are interested in it.  Thanks!

I guess to take that thought a bit further, when I woke up I decided I'd log in and continue my thoughts about top lane and try to get into some depth, share my experiences, and look for feedback/discussion.  I was actually kind of happy to do so and get my thoughts down.  Instead of doing that, I wonder if I should try to explain that I think it takes more skill to play a champion that has been nerfed.  Anyway, ran out of time - time not well spent, but my bad for getting distracted.  

It's really confusing when people edit posts /: 

hmm...  well if you are talking about me (assuming you are), I don't make any edits based on anything anyone else posts - I do tend to reread what I have posted, prior to seeing any comments, and update.  That's usually just me trying to soften my tone in case I think I'm going off a bit too strong unnecessarily.  At any rate, sorry for any perceived confusion.  I'm quite happy to discuss gnar in detail as part of this topic if that's of interest (its of some interest to me at any rate), but I'm thinking a little further down as I want to go over my evolution of thought on top.  

The next bit I'm going to talk about is just the lane in general.  Hopefully will have a chance to put down some thoughts soon.  

Thunder had a VERY different original post + you changed from "Gnar's maintains the same power level" to "lost some of the power he had before". Your edit makes my post ... useless since we are agreeing with each other.

i want to say one of the reasons that there's not a lot to discuss with your first two post is that they are sort of... tautologies. You should:

  1. Win your lane

  2. Win all the teamfights

While that's a great way to actaully... win the game. It's not exactly any new revelations

More interesting stuff would be like:

1.

TP/Ignite vs. TP/Smite. Pros/Cons. LCS like Smite because it allows stronger objective control, and Skirmishers Sabre really isn't THAT amazing unless you're Irelia/Volibear/Warwick. Plus Smite is better in 2v1 lanes.

But i think Ignite is WAY better than Smite for most soloQ. But, maybe there's really efficient jungling routines where you can farm crab/gromp/golems really effectively. Maybe Smite is better if you're a tanky melee (Nasus) against a pokey ranked (Gnar) if you're on Blue side because the Gromp buff is soooo good against autoattacking opponents.

2.

Are there more champs that could run TP/Ignite or TP/Smite? Shyvana, Fizz, Hecarim are all pretty "obvious" but i really think that there's more than just those 

3.

What's the merits in double the "push fast, double sword" strategy, similar to Morgana mid. Morgana mid will often push VERY hard the first few levels, forcing her lane opponent to spend a much of mana counter-pushing. Meanwhile, she'll base at level 3 or 4, get a 2nd Dorans ring, then completely wreck the opponents. i've seen an Enemy Riven who did a similar strategy (with 2x Long Swords).

4.

Dragon vs. Top Tower?

Just last night i was in a very strong position against a Renek (who went Hydra + Flash/Ignite). i was roughly 10 CS ahead. i did a teleport botlane, picked up 1 kill + saved 1 life + got dragon. And i didn't have to lane against a high-damage Renek who had Ignite up. Renekton was able to get top tower and FOURTY CS. From there, he was able to roam. What were the pros/cons of the strategy? 40 CS is too much to give up, since i went from dominating the lane to being unable to lane. But maybe, i saved botlane from not being able to lane and completely ballsnowing. 

Was part of his roams only successful due to my team not being diligent (eg, his first roam was successful even though he walked over wards and i pinged him the whole way down to midlane).

5.

How will the upcoming tower changes modify splitpushing? It'll be much easier to dive inhibitor towers. Does that make teamfight tops even BETTER since they'll be able to close games out faster? Or does it make champs like Trynd/Jax better since splitpushing is a much more serious threat when they get ahead?

6.

What's some good toplane + jungler or toplane + midlane combos. There's the obvious stuff like ye old Gnarven, Liss/Kennen/Rumble top with an AD mid, or Submarine Shen with an AP assassin midlane. Is there anything particularly interesting that fits our groups playstyle?

--

My point is that these sort of questions are going to foster a lot more discussion since they aren't basic "Top Lane 101" stuff. You're just approaching it from a macro-perspective where the top laner should basically be a 2nd tank-support, instead of the micro-perspective of playing Riven/Trynd/Jax/Irelia/Darius and destroying everyone.

--

Continuing Gnar discussion, i do have to say that he ballsnows really hard. Mini Gnar is VERY squishy if you are behind since he's got very high base CDs until he gains levels + builds CDR. And a confident toplaner with that is ahead and has natural sustain (Irelia) can just intentionally eat your boomerangs to deny you CS.

The primary reason for his mediocre/weak win rate is not because he was overnerfed, but just that, due to team miscoordination (going in 5 seconds before MegaGnar form is ready, not being able to teleport at certain times because he's basically teemo), he'll lose 2-3% win rate compared to "always up" bruisers or tanks. Another reason why Gnarven was so good

OK - so recapping things and my personal evolution w/ top lane.  I was probably best adc/support/jungle.  I put in a bunch of time working on top and have learned quite a few things.  Most things are probably common sense to folks that are used to solo lanes, but things have dawned on me a bit and I wanted to track that.

Anyway, top lane pool was gnar/liss - reason being useful even if you call behind, strong initiation, safe lane.  Add Nasus and chogath - generally very safe top laners.  Nasus can become big even if you suck and is safe if you play it right.  Chogath is just a general comfort pick for me.  

Anyway, into the world of strong carries top.  The focus here being on champs that can often single handed carry the game.  And then onto split pushers.

One thing that I've noticed, which I think is the biggest change in my thought process on top lane.  And I'm not sure I can explain it right, but it has to do with the flow of the lane.  before the 1st shop, you can play the lane optimally.  You absolutely should not die, but you can feel out the trades and do whatever you can to win them.  If you fail (not die, just end up in an unfavorable situation due to hp, etc), you adjust tactics and go back to a little more passive.  Few top laner champs can completyely quickly annihilate you from full hp to zilch when no one has shopped.  So, play your part and do the top lane dance.

Now, if you do die, unless your lane opponent is a dringus and sets you up for a free kill by staying in lane, etc, you absolutely must switch over to a less optimal, more passive playstyle.  Request a gank if possible, but play passive and give up farm if you need to.  You must do this if you die early and its not a trade.  The moment the enemy champ has a kill lead on you, you must respect them unless you have a gank inbound. If the lane is more passive but you have been zoned or are behind in cs by like 10-15 or more, you need to respect the item advantage.  Keep an eye on where they are at with their items after each back to track their potential dmg.  Poke a little if that's possible, but don't do a full engage unless you are certain you can win the trade... and you probably can't if they are ahead.  

If you, on the other, manage to get a lead and nab a kill without dying yourself, you MUST protect your lead.  you MUST not just go ham because this guys crap and you are sure you'll just whoop him again - after all, you are ahead now.  Respect the enemy top laner.   Do whatever you need to protect your lead.  Don't play it like you can stomp the enemy laner just because you got a kill.  Just play the lane out, farm well, zone the enemy away from farm as possible, keep your vision up, and go for trades here and there.  Play exactly as you did at the start of the game.  

These concepts are important for most top laners imo, but much more so on champs that don't necessarily have easy escapes.  Anyway, that covers my current macro view of top lane i think. Before it was simply farm, go for poke, go for kill if its there, roam, etc.  Now its super specific and involves playing very passive at times, but I think that's primarily due to the types of champs I'm working on - riven, yas, tryn.  I guess the biggest shift is in just sucking it up if you make a mistake and being willing to play very passive to prevent the enemy top laner from snowballing.  It sucks, but that's the way I really see top lane now - 1 early death means you are now passive guy - most anything else is punishing your team.  

Anyway, my current work is actually trying to consistently apply those principals while I'm working on my skill level with champs I don't normally play.  Quite a bit of work for me.

Any thoughts on the macro top lane stuff?  

oh and I'm totally cool w/ w/e direction we end up going re: top lane discussion - including what you are calling 101 stuff. I've played a ton of league but believe me I don't have everything down when it comes to the solo lanes - actually learning quite a bit.  

Not really, but kind of.

This is just a simple version of what I've been yelling at you about in all lanes, including bot.

If you aren't going to win trades, don't try and trade.  If you are going to win trades, trade.

It doesn't really have to do with counting kills and deaths.  There are plenty of top matchups where somebody can take a silly early death and still be able to outtrade just due to the matchup (lots of them happen with Nasus early on).  There are plenty of cases where somebody can outscale and eventually outtrade even if they are down kills (once again, champs like Nasus, Hec, and Irelia can come into play here).

You tend to like to be aggro at times, even if you aren't going to win trades.  I tend to be overly defensive at times even when I'm ahead, which is also bad.

Anyway, a lot of it is experience in knowing whether or not you are going to win trades.  I'm not experienced enough to accurately evaluate a lot of trades so I get caught on stuff sometimes.

Sorry, thought it was late enough that no one read my original post.  I'm not in the habit of erasing or changing what I put down if someones already seen it... or especially if someone's commented on it.  Or even more so if someone has quoted me.

What I originally said was something like:

Quoted Pacov saying he gives zero fugs about semantics.  I said he should if he's going to use this blog to share what he's learned about this game and use it as a forum to discuss game mechanics.  Then I said something about us having an interesting discussion before that got derailed because I wasn't sure whether his definitions were different from mine on certain terms.