OK, I'll chime in here.

The big issue is that pacov implements strategies without considering the big picture.

The macroscopic picture in this case is that the game is balanced around the fact that supports scale very poorly with gold (except for mages who just randomly go support like Lux/Annie/Brand), while other roles scale much better with gold.  Therefore, systematically shifting gold from other roles onto the support is a bad strategy assuming that everybody is roughly the same skill level.

In other words, if there is any cost to your actions where you are getting more gold on the support, its probably not worth it.  Yet your strategies consistently cost other roles pretty heavily.

Listen, your stuff where taking non optimal combat runes doesn't cost the adc anything is silly.  Everybody from the Challenger guy in that thread on downwards has said that if you don't take combat runes, its going to cost you.  You can't win a 2v2 against even skilled opponents (much less better opponents), so you have to play excessively safe, so your adc loses out on CS or kills.  I'll be blunt - your claims that not having a chunk of combat stats early on don't have any effect on the lane is pretty clearly cognitive bias.  It MUST have an effect - thats how numbers work.  The other team will simply do more damage to you.

So your strategy is systematically transferring gold from the adc to the support.  This is a bad strategy in general.  Now, you might claim that it makes sense if you believe that you are a better player than your teammates and need to carry from the support position, so it might be reasonable in solo queue ranked games.  But you shouldn't be running it in games where we are playing as a group unless you happen to think that you are substantially better than the rest of us.

And I think that this is the real issue - you are running a strategy which basically says "I need to do this because you guys suck".

Your insistence on split pushing more than pretty much every other support falls into the same category.  The idea that you need to grab gold to get support items is the opposite of high ELO thinking.  Supports don't need gold.  The best way they support their team isn't to get a small aura.  It is to be with the team and to simply be present and doing support things.  I miss out on A LOT of engage opportunities because we are short a person.

The thing with Pantheon last night was the same thing.  The whole point of playing Pantheon is that you can clear quickly and at full health with 1 health pot and you have a terrifying level 3 gank very quickly.  If you double jungle, you completely throw away that advantage.  So if you don't double jungle on the bot side, I can brutally punish their bot lane if they push hard to level 2 (which is exactly what I did), but if we double jungle, I throw away my whole advantage to playing Pantheon.  It doesn't make any sense.

So you have to understand _WHY_ high ELO people sometimes double jungle and use it in appropriate spots.  Don't just randomly do it for the lolz or because you read about it being the cool thing to do on reddit.

I think the problem with you, karl, is that you lack the ability to adapt from being completely rigid mentally.  I'll give you 2 clear examples:

1 - let me know the junglers where you are willing to double jungle in order to provide another lane with an advantage (I know - immediately a list of oh I can't possibly do that with X jungler because X come to mind...) - that its seems so difficult to even try says a lot to me anyway.  But, as always, this was a promo game to diamond, so I do understand your unwillingness to go crazy and share the xp on 2 camps while someone soaks damage for you.

2 - lets get downright specific re: the whole olaf top vs riven doing a jungle start thing.  I knew I'd need to start with a jungle camp (as riven will do this and then tp to lane with additional health pots) and tell you in advance that I'll need to double jungle with you.  You prattle on about how you would be screwed if you did this.  

I, knowing I'm not the best top laner with oiaf, know I will need to dbl jungle or solo a camp (Praise be the gods of reddit and elo for helping me understand this very deep concept - but in case you haven't figured it out, a riven, requiring no mana, coming to lane with 4-5 health pots and a ward can out sustain an olaf with 1 pot).  

Right... just thought I'd tie this in - I wanted to dbl jungle or get a camp because I knew I'd need some help in lane.  You, being oblivious to anything other than must level 3 quickly im pantheon, did not consider or care about any of any of that.  I needed help and you told me to f off.  That's shitty.  I went along with it and helped you get a camp - that was my mistake.  I won't ask you to be adaptive again (dead end street eh) but if I need to solo a camp, I'll just go somewhere else and you can fend for yourself.  Or you can take into account when folks ask for your help before a game even begins... 

I think I clearly explain why I wanted to dbl jungle or solo a camp clearly.  Perhaps its useful to note that i only wanted to double jungle for 2 camps to hit level 2 (olafs clears take so long with low hp...) and wasn't planning on clearing the entire jungle with you?  I thought that was understood, but perhaps not.  

Oh the lovely smart talk responses to come.

I can summarize my thoughts re: mr karl though.  I asked for help.  He said bugger off.  I said ok.  Kept my mouth shut and then I see this lovely post where karl indicates I'm telling everyone they suck when I take gold runes and that's the same thing as me wanting to hit level 2 before going to lane, etc.  Woo.  So exciting.  

Among all that glorious jibber jabber, you did hit on something that I find interesting anyway:  

and

2 thoughts on this

1 - generally, I agree.  Not entirely though.  When we are talking about various support items that junglers like karl refuse to buy (hue), there is an obvious value in having those - and the sooner the better, right?  But, that takes me to point 2.

2 - I think there should be a specific point, prior to having crazy amounts of support items, where I should taper things back more.  

Now, I'm clearly saying that the following is something I want to work on - let me explain.  The other night we had ourselves a diamond or challenger adc that I was supporting.  Guy did great and we worked really well together.  Now this guy was johnny on the spot for positional decisions.  I'm not talking about laning or team fight positioning... I'm talking about going to the correct place to get the most money.  A beautiful example of this - the guy was at mid with like a wave in bound and his mid laner is dead (so its farm he could take w/o being a douche or putting his mid in a bad spot). He instead BEE LINES to bot lane where there is a stack of 2 waves lined up.  That was the correct decision based on what was going on actually.  He ended up getting 3 1/2 waves before backing... without hurting his team.

Now, here's where I come in and what I need to work on (and relates directly to the 2nd thing).  Most folks we play with will not make that decision that quickly - especially with money directly in front of them (he took 3 1/2 waves instead of 1 1/2 - 2 waves he would have gotten).  I see the map whenever I die, etc.  This is also what can lead to "split push pacov" and is exactly what causes that glorious phenomenon.  That money is first and foremost anyone on my teams money other than me - I know that - BUT - I'm not just going to let all that money go to waste if no one either sees that money and responds - particularly if there is nothing else on the map that requires my attention as a support at that time.  And - being a support, I generally can't quickly push a wave.  What should happen is that someone should see a shit ton of money available and come get it.  IF they don't, I stay until there is a support objective that is needed  (wards, etc).  And sometimes I stay too long.  What that diamond/challenger adc got was that it was his money and all he had to do was get it.  And so it he did - and so I head off to do something else somewhere or soak up a little more passive gold/xp.  

I just take that a little too far sometimes - especially if people are like oh no.. pacov is a support but is not top, I won't take his money... people shouldn't really do that.  Most don't.  Some do.  I will say that sometimes I end up where the money is when I should not - and that is bad.  

The point is that you overrotate to that gold.

If you rotate to the gold, a carry almost certainly can't.  Teams generally can't afford to 2v0 a lane.  So because the support went to go grab a lane's gold, now our mid/adc can't.  Bad.  You just zoned out our carries from that gold.

High ELO supports see the same thing, but they don't take the gold from the carries.  Basically, we have to avoid situations where carries have to race the support to the lane for gold, which is where we are at now.

You also tend to over value that gold.  Let me give an example.  The last time we played 5v5 teams we had a case where our team won a teamfight.  The top and adc went mid and tried to push down 2nd mid tower.  You ran top to try and catch a wave.  Top and ADC couldn't finish the tower (took it down to ~100) and both died because other team respawned fast enough to kill them as they were trying to finish the tower.  If you had stayed to push the objective instead of catching a wave that you saw people weren't getting, we had the tower and no deaths.  These are the situations that we MUST avoid, but we constantly get into (and its probably getting worse, which is why I'm bringing it up).  But you are just valuing that gold on support over team objectives a lot.  Gold on support is NOT the same thing as gold on adc and should not be treated as such.

I'm not interested in having conversations before every game about the support building support items.  My jungle builds are in line with high ELO jungle builds, and given that I'm almost always the front line tank, I'm not going to sacrifice survivability so that you can fit in a zrot portal.  Support should build support items, unless its a mage support, then we will do without a lot of normal support items (thats the price for mage supports).

Then go solo a camp.  I don't need a leash as Pantheon.  I clear at full health with 1 pot - I just might have to use a 2nd if no leash which is not a big deal.  But you didn't ask to take a camp.  You asked to double jungle, which is not what Pantheon does, especially from bot side.  You can take either wolves or chickens if I'm playing Pantheon, I don't care.

Double jungle makes sense when I'm not looking for specific early spikes or ganks.  So on stuff like Vi.  And I don't really care on farmy junglers like Hecarim or WW.

I think I need a video break down (which I know you can't provide).  Trying to think of times where I clearly should be getting the money vs others.  Need to weed out the good from the bad.  

Just saw this:  "Don't forget to grab your 1 IP Icon in the store! It's a 2015 World Championship Icon."

The point is that junglers and (non mage) supports should be erring on the side of teamwork, not grabbing gold for themselves.  Carries may err the other way if desired.  But if you play support/jungle and you make a mistake on this, it should always be to the side of "oops, I helped my team too much".

oops i helped my team too much with aegis/zekes. ah well.    It's just that I want to help more with every item ever built.  

Just saw this re: leashing changes in the patch comin up.  FYI in case something hasn't been posted/u don't know

[PBE - 5.19] Adjustments to Leashing Rules

Here's Xypherous with a heads up on changes to leashing rules testing during 5.19:

"We've significantly rewrote jungle monster leashing rules. This will not affect Epic Monsters - but will affect most monster camps. 

The goals of this change are to visualize the complex set of leashing behaviors down to a few key visible metrics - as well as better balance control and support for unorthodox ways of dealing with jungle monsters (like continuously throwing them over walls). 

All in all, these changes are aimed at making it easier for players to kite monsters in one direction, get better signalling as to when the monsters will leash and take measures to re-aggro the monster. 

Changes

• Large Monsters now display their "Patience" count as a bar above their heads.
• If you do something that the Monster finds abusive, it will begin to lose Patience at a gradual rate. This continues until you stop the offending activity -or- the monster loses all his "Patience"
• If a monster loses the entirety of their "Patience" - they will hard reset, losing interest in you and beginning to regenerate. They are then, unable to be engaged upon until they are above a certain health threshold (90% currently.)
• Jungle Monster camps have their own unique leash radii to control for the various properties of each camp. Leash Radii is now mostly calculated by walking distance rather than as the crow flies.

Things that cause Monsters to lose "Patience" with you:

• If the monster's current target is far out of the monster's camp and there are no other valid targets around.
• If the monster has to switch targets and is being bounced around from target to target.
• If the monster is waaaay far out of his camp. Like.. WAY far out."

Went 6/2 tonight.  1st 2 games were losses during team builder match making adjustments.  I've said it before, but to say it again - those match making adjustments are generally a bitch.  The 1st 3-4 games you play on a champ you have not played before (IN TEAMBUILDER) result in that MM adjustment thing going active (you can see it team builder to the right of your portrait in lobby).  Anyway, those games are usually dumbed down where you get a true grab bag of folks that have never adc'd and are trying out vayne for the 1st time, etc.  In my experience its usually rough when I'm playing on my main role with a new champ as I'm decent and with folks that often aren't... and are silver.. and so on.  That adjustment thing is a real bitch and leads to super frusrtrating games.

Anyway, won against a rito duo queue bot with them having a diamond adc.  Nice to chat with rito folks anyway.  

Mained the shit out of naut tonight (eg no gold runes as its a melee).  7 games with him (5 win 2 losses).  Really got the hang of him one I wasn't with my MM adjusted pals and did some work.  Played my last game of the night as a ranked with thresh running my gold digger setup. Our team was getting worked, so I didn't really have ops to pull any of my support gold digging bonus stuff (nothing to learn :/). Worked my ass off and we got a win from behind though - 68% kill participation going 0/4/15.  Not exactly great k/d/a but I did a good job and we got a win.  Was able to get a guy that was gold 1 in his promos 1 game closer.  Hopefully he makes it!

Going to break out naut in ranked next time thresh is taken.  I've been pretty much getting thresh 100% of the it if he's up in ranked.  Seems to get a hell of a lot of play at this elo due to the saving power/engage. My naut k/d/a were pretty fing solid.  Had two really good teams in tb as well tonight.  Fun times anyway.  Night!

5.19 patch notes out - nothing all that interesting imo - stated devourer nerf aimed at ranged changes (procs every 4 instead of every 2) and the bit I listed above re: jungle aggro changes.  Otherwise, just bug fixes/QOL changes and minor at that

Had a lovely night topped with a rotten cherrry haha. Rawr, karl and I played some threes and went 5-0 completely wrecking every game. We played a 4v5 game for the last game and lost to the team of 4. Pretty epic fail on our part haha. 

Well that's good anyway.  Glad rawr's getting back into it and getting up to speed.  My night was slightly different.  I started ranked queue at 99LP.  Ended at 20 or so with 4 straight losses.  2 I played exceptionally well, but god bless other lanes. 1 I played decent but nothing special, and 1 I was just crap off and we nearly won in spite of my poop plays.  Kind of a bummer.  

My duo queue buddy is probably going to get himself banned, though.  Straight up flaming folks left and right when things aren't going well (particularly if we are killing it).  Not sure if I'm just going to do some solo ranked for a bit or what.  Ah well - gonna have win and loss streaks.  

I picked up a cloud 9 icon to jump in on the in game emote.  It is delightful to spam trundles marching dance and kicking off that emote. Worlds games starting tomorrow (oct 1) if I'm not mistaken.  Not sure on timing.  

I've won three 4v5s while playing with Gotnades in the past week.  That mans MMR compared to his skill is just not close to accurate right now.  It's like queuing up with a Diamond who brings in Silver opponents.

Actually, one of those games I can't claim to have won since I was the one who DC'd cause of a power outage for a majority of the time.  When the lights came back on I got on TSIII to tell him I was loading back up and asked if we still had a chance.

Nades answered "Don't worry, they haven't surrendered yet so you should have time to get back in."  I'm like "Wait, I thought I heard you say 'they' not 'us' so I must have misheard?"

Loaded up just in time to join the team for the final nexus push. 

It's funny... I feel Support is an important role but it's the one where you can't really tell sometimes whether what you're doing is ideal.  Build badly, get caught out, etc as your team's fed Top/Mid/ADC/Jungle and your team can lose the game off your mistakes. DC half the game as Support when your team is ahead and no one notices you're gone.

#worldshype

I'm getting pumped up.  Going to be able to watch some of the games this AM - pretty excited.  Games start at 10AM EST.

I've gotta tell ya, I struggled a lot last night laning with your bud, cow.  Not at all a knock against him though, I just personally couldn't adapt well enough to how he wanted to play the lane and kept being way too aggressive.  What I needed to do was pick up on how he was doing things much more quickly and sadly I ended up dying a few times before it even occurred to me - I think I was a little slow on the pick up yesterday.  

I noticed something similar the other day when I was duoing some ranked.  I play with this fella that is pretty aggressive but I always run either morg/thresh for him.  I go naut and my playstyle caused a big problem as I'd land decent hooks, etc, and he'd be just far enough way that he couldn't follow up fully.  I don't think my plays were like hambone or anything, but perhaps there's just a little more time to react to the visual queues on a morg bind or thresh hook/follow up.  

Anyway, felt a little out of sync and I had a silly Ali play at one point last night, but other than that, fun enough.  I'm not particularly good with elise, but I've been studying up a ton.  Watched a bunch of recent meteos elise games to see how he's comboing, his routes, etc.  One thing I found really interesting - he almost never takes his first back earlier than 10 minutes... he just stays the crap out and is super productive.  He'll often do 3 camps and then scuttle - after that is pretty much 100% of the time a gank.  After that it goes pretty free form from camping to stealing from the jungle, etc.  Always a w max first since last elise changes.  Elise has really good sustain and it enables her to stay out a very, very long time.  Skill level doesn't have to be super high, but higher than most jungles I think.  Really love her kit, though.  Fun to play