A few of us discussed this before, but I really think its worth noting that trying out this style of play is cool.  Give it a go and see what you think.  I'm actually quite used to it and understand what I can and cannot do (just like folks that prefer to run mana regen runes run out of mana if they don't have them - I know how to play without bonus hp or with less ap damage, etc - my build sacrifice HP, AP, or added armor - that's it).  I don't think its viable to look down on a strategy for a lack of defensive stats provided you are playing well and providing what your adc needs.  And also note I'm not advocating the max gp/10 strat via runes on melee supports (though I do still strongly advocate rushing the tier 2 gold item if the lane phase isn't super close to ending).  

I honestly don't think it super applies, but for the sake of argument, lets say I run a normal support rune setup for a ranged support, but I take teleport/flash.  What I've done is change the win condition for the lane in a way that hurts my adc (unless I can provide reliable cc that would ensure my adc's safety, but we'll leave my craziest thoughts on the side).  Running tp would mean that the adc can be all in'd and the enemy team has a potential advanced before the game even started - all with the bonus of leaning the adc towards tilt.  

I'd argue that gp/10 runes are not the same scenario as long as there is adaptation on the the supports side - NOT required by the adc (for instance, you are little more squishy, so you need to be super mindful of how you poke/zone).  Most supports I'm finding require ZERO adaptation as I play them though - which results in that strong 1st back with sightstone/tier 2 gold item.  Which means a much faster zekes... which means an adc on steroids.  So, if I'm getting my adc a very strong mid game spike, likely MUCH earlier than the enemy team could, well then... might actually be a good idea. And if that added generation results in additional items for the team... well then again.  

Best of all, the numbers I provided are all undershooting the actual value you get from the passives as I didn't include the relic/spellshield/coin values - so there's more value, but I don't think I can stress enough how important I think the tier 2 upgrade is.  

Any of you see this site yet?  

http://www.bestbans.com/

Not sure what I think of the data.  Its supposed to recommend bans based on division (plat, gold, etc).  Not sure what I think of the data.

For instance, at plat Blitz is the #1 ban recommendation.  

Some more ranked last night - plat V 95 lp atm.  Still duoing with the same fella (also plat V).  He's Somewhat inconsistent, but really high APS as an adc - more talented than me in that arena (eg give him a little peel and he's likely going to kill the entire enemy team).  

Decision making seems to be the major problem with folks I'm running into around this elo.  Lately, I'm seeing extremely talented players mechanically, but with incredibly poor decision making skills - to the point of completely throwing.  We'll have pretty good leads that will get thrown by a few people blindly hanging out mid while the rest of the team is clearly elsewhere and the enemy team is all mia.  Predictable things happen.  It's bad when it happens once... but this happens like 3-4 times in games to completely blow away our lead.  I like that things like that sort of nonsense do dry up the higher you go in elo.  I just spend a bit of time saying... wow, this guy could clearly hit plat I at least if only he was a little smarter.  Also seeing people making insanely aggressive dragon calls, people not rotating to cover clear threats when we gain nothing by having an extra guy w/ us, etc.  

Seeing the game a little differently makes a difference imo - for instance, if I play top, I'm generally really keyed into that I need to keep my lead if I get one and if I'm down, I need to not make things any worse.  

IT BEGINS - the karl has started to play his ranked placement matches.  Game 1 was gold II mmr - he appears to have some tardos on his team - solid kda.  Game 2 got kicked way down to Silver 1 mmr.  Got a win on game 3 hitting at right around gold V mmr.  I'm guessing next ranked game will be at gold IV mmr.  Good luck - hoping you dont have to grind to hit that plat.

Oh and thunder silently hit gold I 5 days ago - grats!

I have discovered that Skarner is not good at carrying bads.

Game 1 was...special.  Our top lane went top Vi.  With ignite.  I don't really mind off meta picks, so I wasn't too nervous because I figured that it was just a Vi expert or something.  It was not.  Vi goes 0/9/0 to an Irelia, which is bad as it turns out.  Everybody else actually did ok, but you can't stop super fed Irelia when your top doesn't finish a single item in a 33 minute game (seriously).

Game 2 begins in champ select with a top Teemo.  With a silver border.  With no escapes.  And began the game with "Oh wow, I stealthed in that bush really fast, did something get changed on Teemo?".  It turns out that the Teemo is my best teammate.  I started out like 6/1, but you can't really carry as Skarner and I needed 1 competent teammate.  The other team was actually really bad, but our team was worse.

Game 3 we just ran all over the map killing them without mercy until they surrendered.

glad you got a taste of the good life in game 3 at least.  I know it can be a real bummer losing any placement games... especially due to... horrible things.  Hopefully the wins keep coming in.  I tend to think the one thing that would really suck for you is lower elo games with less skilled teammates.  You don't generally do carry or assassin junglers, so you end up going in needing at least some level of competence.  Same thing at other elos, I suppose, but I know I found games in silver/low gold so much more difficult than what I'm dealing with now anyway.  Hoping you shoot right through the placement.  I do believe they changed how the weight of games works at least.  Previously if you blew your 1st 2 games, you were boned - you take a huge dip on your mmr and then you can only fluctuate like 1-2 tiers or so.  I think it changed so the 1st game is still heavily weighted but then they spread it out so its not a wash if lose the 1st couple.  I'm hoping for gold 2 or 1 for you in initial placement so its at least a short grind.  Good luck!

karl just killed it in his last ranked - a delightful 13.0 kda - mmr for the game was actually right around gold III.  Gold 1 looks quite plausible and maybe even plat.  They gave u a 100 mmr bump after your last win.  If they do it again, next game will likely be close to gold I and its just your 5th game or so coming up (or so i think).  grats on win

Re: Gold Digger Supports

Pacov, I'm fine with you thinking outside the box and open minded to the idea that the pros might outweigh the cons with your GP/10 strat.  However it is very frustrating when you get upset with my performance in lane when you're running an experimental rune setup.

I went on Reddit to get some input from other players from outside our group of friends on how much your rune choices effect our ability to win our lane, get CS, etc.  I also asked for advice on how I can adjust to this style of Support that you're using.

The responses were varied.  From "Wow, another bad ADC blaming his Support for getting outplayed." to... well, I don't think you're going to enjoy reading what a Challenger player said. 

Anyway, here's the link if you're interested on seeing some different perspectives on the subject.

https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/3m3lis/being_trolled_by_a_friend/

9 armor really isn't that big a boost, hardly call to say it's a troll build to skip it.  I don't run GP10 for them either, but I've never run armor on AP supports, I use mana regen.  It's even better now that regen items only increase your base regen.

My AP support page, which I use with champs like Nami who aren't damage focused, is flat magic pen, mp5, mana, and gp5 quints.  My AP page is similar, but with scaling resist glyphs and flat AP quints.  On either, the 3.7 mp5 added to my base regen is averaging 50% in the early levels, and puts me up high enough in mana that I can sustain in lane mid, and throw frequent harass bot lane.

Even at level 1, that extra 9 armor is only worth at most, one extra shot.  50% extra mana regen on the other hand is worth half again as much sustained casting.  For Zyra, that means hundreds of damage in return for less than a hundred effective hitpoints by level 6.  In combination with the ancient coin line of items, you have very good mana and health sustain in lane, allowing you to stay in lane until you run out of wards, or choose to go back.  Unless you screw up, you're never so low on health that you're pushed out, nor are you out of mana and unable to assist.

As a burst AP with AOE and CC, if you're also the more tempting target, this is better anyway.  If I die, after dropping 90% of the damage I'll do, then my partner should have an easy double kill on the two champs that got me, as they've burned abilities, especially CC, on someone that doesn't do much AA damage anyway.  I get two assists, he gets two kills, the other guys get one.  This frequently happens when I'm laning with even a marginally competent ADC.  When I'm laning with someone good, as soon as I harass them to low health, we slaughter, get ahead, and dominate the lane without ever dying.

I'm not sure how effective gp5 would be, I used them back when supports were cash starved and bought tons of wards, it's not so important now with the new support items.  Coin though, is extremely effective at sustaining, especially with mp5 seals.

A few quick thoughts - sorry you feel like i was being critical of you, thunder - thought I mentioned to you I was trying to work on that and I think I've actually been good for the most part lately anyway.  Title of your reddit thread is "being trolled by a friend."  hmm.  While I think its cool to discuss and get feedback from other folks, the only thing I really find fault with is the way you are taking things.  Totally OK to be annoyed if I'm complaining or busting your chops.  Less cool in my mind when you are deciding, before a lane phase has even begun, that a rune decision I'm making is hurting you and setting you back.  Not like I'm perfect at that (I see a quinn jungle, for instance, I'm annoyed instantly - that ended up with quinn carrying the shit out of the game).  Anyway, I'd still say let's see how the game goes and then make a decision.  I think you even alter your play style because you've decided you are boned just due to runes.  I could run all MR runes and probably do really well as a support... and I'm only running my setup on ranged supports. If that's trolling you, then I guess trolling = disagreeing.

I don't know... maybe just don't check my runes and play the lane like normal and see how it goes?  I think I've asked if you are lagging when we are both full hp and you are staying way back at turret, etc.  Maybe you are just deciding we can't do anything because I have gp/10 runes and you need to hug turret as a result.  At any rate, sorry you are having some residual bad feelings from whenever we played last.  I'm not looking to troll you, though. Really sorry you see it that way.  

A couple people pointed out my title of the Reddit thread was out of line.  My apologies.  I think I have a less harsh definition of what being 'trolled' is than most people, which leads to some misunderstandings.  Also I thought I'd get more hits with that instead of "Question About GP/10 Runes"

Guilty of this at times, but not always.  I remember one time back when I was assuming you would only run full GP10's on Morgana, we were having a rough time in lane and it just 'felt' like we should be doing much better.  Checked your Thresh runes and said to myself "Ahhh... well, that explains it."

Even if I stopped checking your runes, the opposing bot lane still can.  If they see that you're playing Thresh without Armor/HP Seals or Armor/AD Quints, they'll know that they can be extremely aggressive with us.

Well, it's not a decision made off your runes.  It's a decision made from actually getting beat up after you get chunked down from not having combat runes a few times.  Kind of the reason I need to check your runes in advance so I don't get blindsided by you not being able to protect me or yourself as well as someone running combat runes.  Me ending up under our turret until Karl can come and save the day is the result of me playing the lane like I normally would with someone who is actually on equal footing with his opposing Support.

MR runes actually do something in lane before your first shop.  GP/10 runes do not.

A few more thoughts - ok - so I get going to with a click bait title to try to get more attention. You got some folks of higher elo to comment, so mission accomplished.  I just was a little sad thinking you thought I was trolling you (which to me, means I'm literally trying to screw you over or messing with you and feigning ignorance etc when my intention is to f with you). I think we sorted that out.  And the issue is summed up well by you not liking my rune setup for various reasons and then really not liking it when I'm asking or questioning what you are up to.  That 2nd point makes perfect sense to me and I get that will continue to try to not be negative, etc.  I do want to address this in your OP though:

"Please trust me, convincing him that these runes have a negative effect on my ability to help us win the lane is not an option. More people than just me have tried to explain that Support runes do make a difference for the ADC's laning experience and he simply refuses to believe that."

Let's clear this up.  My runes could have a negative impact effect on your ability to help us win the lane.  The problem with your statement is that you and anyone that agreed with the premise on reddit and/or among our pals aren't really keyed into a very important factor -  namely that it doesn't necessarily have a negative impact - and in my experience, rarely does.  The only concrete scenario you could come up with where it would be factor is another crappy hypothetical. Let's say it pacov (gold runes)/thunder bot vs pacov (more standard support setup)/thunder bot with no jungle intervention.  gold runes pacov has to play a little differently than non gold pacov which could potentially result in my adc getting zoned.  Could.  Or you can toss in the we're up against a substantially better bot lane (which I don't regularly experience and I doubt you do either).

All of that crap really boils down to how does gold rune pacov handle the lane - not the other 2 schmucks auto win lane regardless of their champs, skill level, chemistry.  If the common outcome is loss of lane or adc is harmed, its a bad idea.  As the guy running gold runes, I can tell you that's not typically what happens.  Anyway, if it was clear that gold rune pacov harmed his team more often than helped, I wouldn't go gold runes.  Not worth it then and obv a bad idea.

But summarizing - I recognize that gold runes could negatively impact your ability to win lane and I wouldn't use them if I believed it caused us problems.    

I tend to think of runes/masteries kind of the way some old games work.  You can pick from like 3 templates - 1 - good early, 2 - good mid, 3 - good late (obviously really simplifying).  I believe I'm a good enough support that I can trade off some stats for that common rune setup and still control the lane... also gaining the benefit of added gold generation resulting in stronger mid/late game game.  

Realistically, this enables me to be effective even if my adc is not.  There's your selfish angle.  It even enables me to do well for the team even if my adc is only doing so/so.  But - if my adc is doing well, it means an early zekes for him and incredibly strong snowball potential mid game (including drake control).  And the biggest thing, the trade off is generally decided in the 1st few minutes of the game.  

Oh - and the enemy team being hyper aggressive because of some perceived weakness is generally a pretty good opportunity that can be countered in my experience.  Being over aggressive tends to lead to less HP if properly handled... towards the aggressor.  It varies ofc, but imagine a support walking up to wail on me as thresh.  Pretty sure that enemy support will take a few shots from both me and my adc.

Anyway, I don't believe a gold rune setup is generally hurting my adc.  If, even semi consistently, the result of a gold rune setup was hurting my adc, I wouldn't use it.  Tell you what, though - next time we go bot, I'll run my setup and ask you to do just 1-2 things a little differently.  Give that a go.  We have a few games where you getting crushed in a row or hurt by me, I'll stop the gold runes for you, even though I don't believe its consistent.

I'm totally cool with you playing whatever you want, however you want.  Especially your Rune setup now that it's how you play your Ranked games and not just on the Ranked 5's Team and Normals.

Didn't start the Reddit thread to prove anything.  Just wanted to know if I was overreacting to how bad your setup would hurt our early game and chances to win lane and how I could personally compensate.  I got my answers so I'm good.  

Ended up linking you the post so you wouldn't find it on your own and feel backstabbed or something.  I know you're a big Reddit fan.

So... just please give me a heads up if it looks like we're going bot together and you're planning on using GP/10 runes.  I've been working on my Ez and he seems like the best choice to lane with your Gold Digger setup.

700ish gold 20 minutes in isn't really that big a boost to your late game.  If you lose out on a couple kills because of your lower stats, you've more than burned the advantage already.

You're lessening your ability to affect the lane early, and hoping your skill will edge out over the disability from your gold generation.  All things being equal, it must result in a loss of some level in return, perhaps only a minion or two in farm, perhaps a death or a lost kill.  When it's on a champ that does beastly damage, like Sona, you're probably not going to recoup those losses from the passive gold, which is why I use my AP runes.  You can't play differently and make this go away, you're simply missing damage, defense, or both, and as such will lose out on trades compared to the results you'd otherwise see.

Ancient coin isn't trading damage for money, it's trading damage for sustain.  Damage for sustain is a big deal on how you play your champ.  You can take more damage and do less as a result of a sustain build, but use that sustain to erase the consequences, and continue to dish it out more.  It's all about only getting poked in return for a poke until you've got them low enough that you can take the all in and still plow them even with your inferior numbers.  Then when you're ahead, you can harass them out of the lane indefinitely.  If you fuck up against a team that can out poke, you get plowed and have an even harder time laning from behind.

You probably end up making more money with it as well, but that's just a sweet bonus.  With Zyra and a competent adc, I run a coin/2 ward start, out sustain the health pots, and run them out of lane first using the excellent range of well timed plant harass just about as fast as I make seeds to use.  I only get to do that because of how much mana regen I have, more gold wouldn't get me that.

Been out of town.  Back around tonight and playing .