Its a statistical argument.

Let's say that you are the 1 in a 1+4 vs 1+4.  If your 4 is not well coordinated (a bunch of people who don't play a lot together) and theirs is (they play a lot together), your chances of losing are very high regardless of individual skill.  Since your chances of being on the well coordinated side of this is 50%, this drags your winrate toward 50% (assuming it was above 50%).

Essentially a 4 has a much larger say on the game than a 1+1+1+1 if they always match up 4+1 vs another 4+1.

If its 1+1+1+1+1 v 1+1+1+1+1 you don't have this effect.

Also, being the jungler when the other people are all in the same group and you aren't is generally not fun.  Its blame the jungler to the nth power.

That's exactly the point.  Which one you get as the odd person out is random.  Sometimes you get a 4some that is well organized and its good.  Sometimes you get a 4some that is crap, but you are now forced to play against a 4some that is organized, so your chances of winning are zilch.  And since I'm pretty sure that 4>1+1+1+1, this makes the entire process more random.

Yes.

Yes.

No.  

That's a bit of a leap - to go from win/loss matters to any other way to specifically quantify how often you win/lose = silliness.  There's nothing even remotely wrong or silly with being able to break down X person is good in X role.  You already do that. I already do that based on familiarity at least with folks in our group.  I just propose that ranked would measure skill by role.  Sure, you could still have your rewards based on highest tier reached, but I for one would find it a lot more satisfying to have my rank classified by role - and with the new champ select, that might actually be very possible to do. I take it a step further (al champion mastery if it was just a measure of # of games played ><) and say I'd also like to have a ranking based on champion that was actually meaningful.

So, ranked elo by role along w some other sort of good measure of champion skill (champion mastery 2.0) - that's what I'd like to see.  

Agreed.  Pretty sure we see eye on eye on this one.  And I'm not a fan.  I really dislike skewing things further and further away from a measure of individual skill.  And tossing in a 4 man pre at someone that wants to solo pretty much skews things as much as possible.  But hey, its cool - except that the same ranking applies to the 1 guy with 4, 2 guys with 3, etc.  Previously there were 2 things that skewed things - champ select and duo queues.  Now, it will be Less champ select (still some variance due to 2 roles/fill) and now the skill level of the queued up folks.  

I wonder what sort of impact all this will have on queue times seeing as some folks will gravitate to playing ranked as a group more often.

So how about that ohm wrecker zz portal top taric?

It's nothing compared to my zz portal rylai scepter donger mid.

How would your system of Ranked Elo by role work?  Dropping people down in MMR when playing off roles/champs wouldn't be fun and would be subject to a lot of abuse.

I think they have a good way to measure champion skill right now.  It's called the Krazikarl System.  It involves winning games. 

Truly outrageous!

I'm glad you could find a way to carry with an unpopular champion.  Almost like you found... a hidden gem in Taric Top.  A... diamond in the rough if you will.

STAHP

I'm not sure exactly.  I think its better to simply and just focus on the ranked elo by role bit (though I think champion mastery should have some sort of impact, its not really realistic).  

There's exactly 1 thing that team builder occasionally gets right - it does do adjust MMing if its your 1st few times with a champ.  With TB, there's no guarantee you'll actually be laning against someone with a similar handicap - just that someone on the other team will have that handicap.  With the new champ select, they could very feasibly put 2 folks that primarily play a diff role against each other playing their new or weaker roles.  I like the idea of some sort of very temporary adjustment.  Doubt we'll ever see such a thing, but I think that would be cool. just a role level and only for a set number of games.  Or if there was some sort of role MM adjustment that could take place.

Again, a system that I think would be awesome would be 1 solo queue that is truly solo.  Your elo is earned per role.  MM is based on your elo per role.  So, P support pacov is matched against other P supports.  Gold Mid pacov is up against other gold mids.

With that in mind, there would probably have to be something in place to factor in a players understanding of the game, etc (eg plat level mechanics/knowledge means I might have much higher odds beating a gold mid with gold mechanics).  

Anyway, I think that would be a more satisfying experience and actually would drive me to play much more often in many more roles.  For example, I see my Top lane is silver and my support is plat.  Shite - I want to work on my top lane to improve a bunch.  And so on.  And it probably results in you having very even matches in your lane.  That would not be the case if I just went from say support to top lane against a plat level top.  It's ok to lose a bunch and learn, but isn't it a bit more fun to lose and learn to someone that is closer to your skill level at least initially?  

All of this is pie in the sky, though. Dynamic queues are coming, will be here a bit, and will get trashed if it blows.  

That would be one of the main issues.  I've watched Cowsep carry a game hard in high level Korean Solo Queue as Support Master Yi.  He certainly didn't need to have to play against worse players to make it fair.  Mechanics and overall understanding of this games fundamentals are a bigger deal than you might imagine they are.  Most of us just see good players as good players and don't really need to categorize them or ourselves when it comes to skill at  playing different roles.

And there would be abuse and just too many things to try and adjust.  When IreliaCarriesU goes Irelia Mid for the first time, does he go against a Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, Diamond, Master, or just lower ranked Challenger Mid player?  For how many games?

And howabout all the people like Karl and you who complain about being in an MMR with bad players who fail to follow up and play well as a team?  Wouldn't putting them at a lower MMR with 'goomba' teammates hurt their chances more than help some games?

And... Ranked is for playing what you know.  If you want to learn a new role, there will be Normal Draft games with the exact setup as Ranked.  Hell, they're even modifying the new system for Blind Pick so you can get the role you want to play.

OK - so you personally wouldn't care to see any differentiation between a player being rated as Plat Support and as Gold Mid?  

Maybe we just disagree there.  I like qualifications like that and they drive me to improve.  Lyte said one of the problems with ranked is folks getting to a set tier and then quitting.  Ex I hit plat then didn't care.  You probably hit plat and now you are like fug it for this season.  A system where you were ranked by role would likely drive more folks to play more often.  

Also, I wonder if this dynamic queue system will get folks to lighten up a bit more in ranked and play ranked together more often.  

Don't get me wrong, it would be kinda cool to have rewards for getting to a tier playing different roles.  I'm all about unlocking achievements in games, though nowhere near as passionate about it as you are.

I just don't think it would be worth all the problems and possible abuse issues that I brought up.  That you didn't address or offer solutions for.  It just wouldn't be worth all the downsides to me.

And I don't think it would be that hard.  I think you could easily get to Plat as whatever main you wanted to put a little time into.  Cow is Diamond because he's an awesome player much more than he's an awesome Mid/Brand player IMO.  I'd say that knowing how to play a specific role is a relatively small percentage of a player's overall skill.  You seem to think it's much larger and needs to be celebrated.  That's the thing we probably disagree on if anything.

Yah - I wasn't trying to solve the problems or imagine the exact problems as much as trying to get anyone to even indicate if they dug the concept to find out if I was alone in my opinion or not.  Sometimes it takes a really long time to get there.  

You were asking two different questions. Here are my answers:

Q: Would it be cool to have a reward system for being a well rounded player or have an indicator for what people play to earn their Ranked Tier?  

A: Yeah!  That would be kinda neat.

Q: Would you like to see them institute a Teambuilder like handicap in Ranked or gave players a separate MMR for every Role?

A:  No.  I would literally quit playing Ranked if they instituted something like that. 

Just saw this and thought it might be useful - actually some info I haven't seen before and a quick tutorial on how to use multi select in OP.GG during champ select.  < 4 min - good watch for ranked

mmm... ranked donger.

game 1 ranked donger - up against a D smurf TF.  I play my lane correctly.  I ward and keep turrets up a reasonable cluster to avoid ganks - no issue there.  Because I've played a bunch of tf recently, i know exactly what mr tf wants to do.  Push wave and ult to gank.  Donger makes that impossible as its a no stop wave push.  I apply pressure and pound on the tower and poke.  He does a good job avoiding my aa's for the most part and some of my poke.  Anyway, I contain him.  He ends up using his TP to get back to lane after I push him out and I'm able to outlast him even after that TP to keep him stuck in lane.  

Anyway, I lock done the laning phase.  I don't see any good tp ops that won't result in TF following, so my TP is unused a bunch.  That's bad.

Where I fell off and had issues - grouping as a team and how I did so.  I did a few proper groups, but other times just made some awful positioning.  Then in team fights, I 'm not quite sure how to do so optimally.  I have a good siege setup, but I'm not quite sure where I should be positioning in a skirmish - and I feel slow as fug.  

Anyway, we get a win - should have been much easier honestly, if not for positional mistakes on my part.  

Sorry I was really tilty yesturday. I was not having a good day at work and yeah... not happy cow.