Well, I've watched way too much support Zyra on streams recently and all the high ELO streamers I've seen take Q first and max it first.  Also, ProBuilds has all the support Zyras doing the same - I didn't see any E rushes off hand by support Zyra.

Q gives way more early push power for level 2.  Once you hit level 2, the Q then W combo is way stronger.

I've seen way too much support Zyra recently given that I don't play her.  I can never do the Q then W properly.

It's good when you're invading and getting invaded.  And any team dumb enough to get invaded in The Trinket Era is probably somewhat careless.  And any team that decides to invade against a champion who has a Sona ult level 1 is probably somewhat stupid.

So my guess is that people see the stats that say leveling E first is best cause you win more games when you do, but those are skewed since they're 'invade' games.

Edit: By leveling E, I mean level 1.  Lots of top players prioritize E, but even they get Q level 1.

now I remember what it was - the root duration goes up as you level it.  That means additional time to proc thunderlords and additional time plants are wailing on folks.  

• ROOT DURATION: 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75

The problem with putting everything into E is that you can't use it too much offensively.  That is, if you are just throwing out E's all over the place, you screw yourself against a decent opponent if you miss one - Zyra with E down means the opponent gets to own lane for 12 seconds.  So you have to hold it quite a lot.

But Q is a harass tool that you can afford to miss sometimes.  Your ADC doesn't get zoned out a bunch if you miss one.

So a Q max lets you put all your points into a spammable skill.  An E max puts all your points into something that you generally have to hold a lot.  It's only good if you don't plan to spend much time in lane.

I'm guessing that the reason that there are some high level Zyra players who prioritize E first is that they are very good at hitting skillshots.  Most do put at least three points into Q before switching to maxing E though, probably cause they are against opponents who are equally good at dodging skillshots.

No matter which they end up prioritizing, they put QWE as their first three skills almost every game.  Easy mode Q-W Thunderlord's procs starting level 2 are just too good to pass up unless an invade happens.

I run Q up first when it's high mobility champs, and E when it's not.

You prioritize E because the damage from the plants isn't based on the level of Q, and you have to have that longer root to really wreck the lane with your ultimate.  Q only adds 35 damage with each level, and in an all in, that's less damage than you'll gain from your plants having that extra time under root, and way more when it's the difference between them escaping R before the knockup.  A level 6 all in with E at level 1 is very weak by comparison, a double root at 1.75 seconds, followed by a knockup less than a second later is typically a guaranteed double kill for the ADC unless Zyra picks one or both of them up herself.  Her harass doesn't suffer that much from being a level 1 Q, at level 6, the plants are doing 62 base damage, 70 instead of 140 off Q is just a single shot difference with a little AP.

It is very reliant on actually hitting your skillshot though.  E first works quite well at low ELO, assuming you're good with it, but I wouldn't expect it to work at plat plus, the odd diamond smurf trolling through silver just doesn't get snared often unless they've already engaged, at which point I'm rescuing my idiot ADC, not setting up a double...

yeah - new champ select Jan 13 - replacing team builder 1st.  

Not sure who's going to still be playing Blind Pick or Normal Draft when this goes live.

Even when we have five in a group it solves the issue of:

"Where's everyone going?  I'll fill."

"Don't care."

"Wherever."

"Don't matter."

"Look at my name."

yeah.  BUT - the real question is how elo is going to work with team builder (eg new champ select when its functioning as a team builder replacement only).  Not sure how the transistion will work...

looking forward to it very much tho

also... fill exists... so hurm

Re: New Champ Select

It's going to replace Teambuilder and will replace Draft eventually but it's essentially a new queue.  I imagine whatever way they figured out your MMR when Current Teambuilder launched will be how they decide what your MMR will be when New Champ Select launches.  Or maybe they'll just use your Normal Draft or Current Teambuilder's MMR?  It's not a big deal, it'll stabilize eventually.

Or do you mean the MMR Adjustment when you tried a new champ that Current Teambuilder gives you?  In that case, I'd say they're getting rid of that.  It wasn't popular, easy to implement, and was one of the things that fucked up the balance during matchmaking.

Re: 'Filling' In Our Friends Normal Games... Or Maybe Possible Group Ranked If We're All Getting Along And Feel Simpatico

Right now people might just be offering to fill cause they're nice and don't want feel like the person who pushed their way into playing the role they wanted.  Now everyone can have a chance to play one of two roles every game.  

Nobody will have to be The Fill Bitch unless they want to be, or we have four or five people in the group and no one has indicated they're willing to play one or two of the roles. Not sure how that situation will work.  Guess you wouldn't be able to Queue up until someone put down fill?

Hmm - let's think the lobby setup through.  We go through a few phases -

• we have the initial lobby before queuing up where everyone pops in and has to select 2 roles, 1 role and fill, or fill.  
• Position assignment where rito assigns you a role 
• Pick intent - everyone can (don't think you have to, but maybe) indicate the champ they want to play
• Bans
• Picks

So, in the initial lobby, if we have 5 of us, then you could still pick fill if you don't care.  If you pick 2 roles, you'll always get the 1st role requested unless someone else in the group has selected that as their 1st role - then rito will decide.  That's kind of fair anyway.  If a few people pick fill, then they are randomly assigned.  Everyone could still just blow off this step and we'd keep the status quo where folks all select fill.  Realistically, though, some folks will select specific roles and some that really don't care will select fill.  To get it to a no hard feelings, tongue in cheek, bitchy passive aggressive post level, I think we'd need to get on the same page and try to get folks to be honest with what they want to.  Eg if we actually have people that truly don't care, they fill.  If we have someone that only plays support, well folks should still be able and willing to contest that instead of being a nice fella and we should have people indicating that their 1st pick preference is support as well (instead of just picking fill, grumbling if things don't go well in the role you wanted, etc).  We'll just have to have folks get over that and hopefully be a little aggressive and let rito decide if we have 2 folks with support as their preference, etc.  

Things will be a lot nicer I think when we have <5 people.  We'll still need people to be willing to contest a persons desired role if they want it within however big our premade is, but we generally won't have someone getting boned into a role they'd rather not play.  That's a pretty big win for all of us when we have < 5.

Outside of that initial lobby, I think the position assignment done by riot and the pick intent phases will be really helpful - the position assignment being particularly useful if we all abide by it.  

That's exactly correct - nothing happens until that is done.  You pick fill and lock, 2 roles and lock, 1 role and fill or you can't queue up.

Status quo has been fine with me.  I just think it's kinda silly when we have a game of champ select chicken going on and we all could of decided roles before queuing as five.  With five seconds to pick:  "You can pick first buddy."  "No buddy, you pick what you want."

I don't know if this Beerislove fellow would rather be playing his main roles rather than filling in.  He's a super nice guy and the person I was thinking about when I posted last night.  You didn't think I was talking about myself did you?  When we're in a group I've been able to play my main role almost every single game since no one else seems to want to play it.

I think this is going to be my fav change of the season hands down.  

Being able to play the role I want to play is 95% of the reason I play team builder now.  5% is being able to play whatever champion I want.  

So, lets think downsides.  The new champ select that is replacing team builder will have bans.  Team builder does not.  So, that removes that 5% bonus I mentioned for me anyway of being able to play anyone.  They did say they will make the blind pick queue just not have bans and use the new system, so that's still an option I'd "kind" of have - kind of meaning that I still can't guarantee I get to play whatever champ I want.  Not as big a deal, but it means that any "practice" of new champs, if they have a high ban rate, will likely be restricted to custom games.  That's kind of a step back in my mind, but its probably worth the trade offs.

If you are queuing up solo, it also means you are not guaranteed to the role you want.  

Anyway, the I think those are the only 2 downsides as a replacement for TB specifically - you are not guaranteed to get the champ you want to play and you are not guaranteed to get the role you want - while you can today.  I doubt that's a big deal to most folks, but its something I liked anyway.

That's all pretty minor, but worth noting as I'm trying to think through the pros and cons and why I play the modes that I do.  

Downsides outside of team builder - well, bans might end up being straight stupid.  3 people per team each get 1 ban.  What happens when one of those people decides GP must be banned every game.  What happens when another guy dislikes X instead of more needed ban, etc.  I think the concept of 1 ban for 3 people per team is more fair, but I think it will result in some folks that are commonly banned now getting through.  We'll see on that one.  

after the cow games ended tonight, i decided to play ranked. hit plat IV after 4 games.  Don't super care about preseason ranked, but was super cake walk.  Went like 8/0/++ lux mid 1 game.  Played support the other 3 games and did ok.  Felt like pretty big mismatch games.  Maybe the pop is low in preseason.