hey rui

I often have difficulty understanding you because of the language barrier.  I'm sending you a PM now

i just wanna know where is my friend pacov as a gamer where is that guy who speak with us take decision´s as a team not solo, where are you pacov???

where are that behaivor as you let us know in demigod mo matter hiw we play you still talk or play with us that is what i´m trying to say in top post.

how can you send me a pm if you dn´t speak with me?

neither in skype you answear me wtf happen to you? i have bronze friends and i still gold and i never delete them for nothing and i still play with them.

I sent you a pm on this forum...

There haven't been discussions about excluding anybody from normal games that I'm aware of.  Some people just don't spam their entire friends list when forming normal games, so I wouldn't read anything into it if you don't get an invite.

@Karl

I took the meaning of what he said differently than you did.  I believe he means that if you're going to point out his mistakes and their possible relation to how poorly the game is going when he starts complaining about everything that is going wrong, then he'd prefer you not accept his invites in the future.

@Pacov

I'm surprised to hear that you're still slightly upset over what happened with the Ranked team I put together.  First of all, I remember watching your stream when your ADC had taken on a very familiar attitude where he decided that since he had struggle early game, he was going to AFK farm while the rest of your team helplessly watched objective after objective fall.  Was hoping that a bit of self awareness hit you at that moment and you thought "Oh... this is really frustrating.  No wonder my friends were worried about having me on their team back when I used to do this."

Also, I remember you had an opportunity to put Karl on your team at one point when your support left.  Karl is a fantastic jungler and you could have moved to your best role: support.  This would have made your team much stronger, at least that's how I see it.  

However, you opted to stay in the shotcaller role that decides which lanes win and which lose, because you wanted to keep playing your team games with great synergy and have control over how things went.

That's fine, it's great.   What I don't get is how you don't look back and say "Oh I totally get it now.  It wasn't personal, it wasn't a knock on my skill level, or anything like that.  Thunder just wanted what I wanted: to have distraction free games where everyone was on the same page and playing like a team when he played Ranked 5's."

re: the hibernating ranked team - it's certainly possible for something to be logical but at the same time hurtful.  I took a bit of offense back then even though I played things as nice as I could.  I don't know that its worth trying to help you relate, but imagine you play mostly with 5-6 people and tomorrow they form a ranked team, don't discuss it with you, and you have been excluded.  That's about how it went down for me and it was a bit of a smack in the face.  Which made me a bit more sensitive.  If you are super evolved and that wouldn't phase you, then great.  Anyway, the only real take away as that relates to now is that I try to pay more attention to people's attitude's towards me. 

@karl - I don't believe I'm being excluded from games and that's not what I meant, though I can see why you'd think that.

@thunder -

hurm... to rephrase,  you said "pacov would rather people not join his games if you are going to point out what he's done wrong when pacov starts complaining about everything that is going wrong." 

Well.... no, that's not exactly what I'm getting at.  Let me try breaking this down a different way and perhaps fill in some blanks.  I note a problem: I'm getting overly worked up and upset a couple of nights in a row playing my favorite game with folks I typically play games with.  So, the question is, why?  I've had times in the past where I'm worked up about a personal issue and that boils over to some outburst in gaming, but that's not the case here. 

One particular moment sticks out in my mind from that 2nd day blow up of mine, though.  I misunderstand a rotation after playing support most/all of the night and end up bottom lane.  My bad, but now I'm in a position to split and get a turret while the enemy team tries to siege mid. I take the turret and we suffer minimal losses.  [Edit for clarity] The entire enemy team breaks off their siege of mid and rotates bot to me.  I get killed after taking the turret.  Then a few people on our team oddly decide to push mid against their entire team (or get caught deep in enemy territory) while I'm dead.  When our guys at mid get killed, the enemy team gets a baron as a result of that.  I'm told it was my fault our team lost baron when I see zero correlation in the slightest to my stopping the enemy team's siege on mid by drawing all of them bot lane, my taking an objective (tower), but then dying to several of them alone.  That's an example of a play that started wrong (I ended up at bot lane because of a mistake) that had close to the best possible outcome (siege ended, turret taken, enemy team drawn away from baron).  In reality, what cost the team baron was whatever folks ended up doing at mid after I died.  Anyway, I was blamed for the team losing baron.  And the way things are, they would be no apology for that insult.

Now, I really don't want something like that to become the precedent.  So much so that I'd rather have nothing to do with that sort of thing in the future.  It's not just that I felt like I was blamed for something that I considered a good play (again, albeit from a positioning error at the start).  It's that my reaction to being blamed when I felt blameless was rage.  I'm supposedly playing a game with pals and for 2 consecutive nights, I end up consumed with anger. 

So, the problem is that gaming fun nights turn to bad experiences for not just myself but others.  I fully realize that me having a negative attitude boils over to others and the same thing can be said of other people influencing me.  Here's the tie back to that whole ranked 5's team bit - if nothing changes, I'd fully expect folks to begin to exclude me based on a perceived "he throws a bunch" etc.  And in the example I provided, I was accused of throwing (giving the enemy team a baron) when i actually did something good.... which means that if I can be blamed for something good and identified as throwing, pretty damn good odds that it will be pointed out when I actually do something wrong (which happens - I do plenty of stuff wrong). 

Anyway, temporary solution - remove myself from pals.  Done.  I take a few days and play solo.  No one really around to set me off, so I get back to a more "I'm playing games to have fun" state.  Step 2 - start playing again with folks that I'm not negatively disposed to or have a negative disposition towards me.  Done/in progress.  Step 3 - all these words.  Step 4 - play again with folks I'd normally play with after having reset things.

i think we need bann pacov for 3 days to he think better 

who vote yes?

bann pacov for 3 days we are the tribunal  

GG

I guess I understand that being excluded like that from the team would make me feel pretty shitty under the same circumstances.  I believe I apologized for not handling things better by reaching out and trying to explain the reasons I was worried about having you on the team instead of just ignoring the elephant in the room so to speak.  If I haven't before, I'd like to say I'm sorry now.

It's good that you're dealing with your frustrations and finding your center again in a constructive way, but I'd rather not see you get to that point in the first place.  It sounds like you've been feeling like the team's whipping boy recently which can't be good.

So... my advice in the future would be to just try and complain less.  If you're losing your lane cause you're getting camped top, no one you play with that I know is going to be a jerk about it.  They're simply going to do there best to win the game by taking advantage of the lack of jungle pressure elsewhere and the fact that our Jungler's FF is getting charged up earlier, etc.  However if you pick a late game hypercarry that every Silver player in the world knows you have to camp hard then it's pretty unreasonable for you to vent your frustrations with what we all see as the simple consequences of your choice of champion.

Want to not get camped cause you have awesome escape ability?  Want to get some of Karl's sweet sweet ganking cause you took ignite and have hard CC in your kit?  Pick Rene.  Want your whole team to prioritize getting you fed and farmed and one shotting people with your Q when you play Nasus? Find some impressionable MadCast Silver players to do your bidding.  Karl and Hedgie play with the priority to win the game, not with the priority of making sure Pacov gets to carry the game.

Now, i don't know the game that you're talking about and if i was in it / watching / whatever.

And assuming that it is Karl who reamed you about Baron

First of all, you do have a habit of splitpushing often as a support. Sometimes that's fine, there's gold dying to tower... things are warded... no real objectives... neither team is grouped... etc. Some supports are just flat-out better at splitpushing than other. Fiddle kills stuff a lot faster than Nami, for example.

More probably, people saw you splitting bot slowly killing creep waves and internally went *sigh*. Even though the 4v5 midlane wasn't successful for the enemy team, they were frustrated to see you farming creeps botlane as a support at 30 minutes.

Even though you died for a tower + got 3-manned (an overall increase in team gold and relieves enemy pressure), sometimes your team was really far ahead and if you had just 5v5'd you could have gotten an Ace and an inhibitor.

Plus, trading towers for deaths isn't always a good idea once bigger objectives start coming into play. Trading a life for a tower at the 40 minutes can certainly lose games... Trading teleport, ult, flash and a death for a tower with only 50 hp remaining isn't a good trade either, regardless of the stage of the game.

Anyway my understanding of that particular situation (from whoever got the most angry) was:

1- pacov is splitpushing as a support again. argggg

2- oh well he got a tower. died for it. let's try to do something.

3- we misplay, damn it.

4- IF ONLY PACOV WASNT SPLITPUSHING. #3 could have been prevented by just 5v5'ing. RAGE.

Of course, #3 could also have been prevented by just ... not screwing up. Which is an important thing to consider. But people may not have been so frustrated during #1 and #4 if there wasn't a habit of you splitpushing as a support? The feelings of frustration may not have just came from that single game. Just like your feelings of frustrating don't come from a single game.

On the other hand, your post appears to summarize to be: "my team screwed up and then gave them baron, not me. And then they blamed me a lot. But i had a net gain since a tower is better than a death. But they just threw shit away.  THEY gave them baron. Not me.".

A more accurate (and must less emotionally poignant) statement is "both my actions and my team's actions resulted in the enemy team getting baron".

Even though you "traded" a tower for a kill + baron versus your team trading nothing for 3 kills + baron ... it's still a negative trade.

Anyway, just a thing to consider when splitpushing... 1v0 is really easy. When a splitpusher kills a tower, it's really not "oh look guys i got a tower. look how good i am for the team". The other 4 people have to pressure and be pressured while you do that. That's the hard part. 1v0 is easy.

It's the same thing as soloing baron. If you're soloing baron at 18 minutes as Trynd/Nunu/Yi/whatever... the rest of your team can't just walk down together bot lane you know?

And so (frequently) you get the easy job, even though it might work out great and get us an inhibitor/dragon/baron/whatever. i mean splitpushing isn't ALWAYS the wrong thing to do. But when you get to just right click things and then say "well iiiiii got us a dragon. wtf are you guys doing?" tends to ... get people excited, to say the least.

Generally, our group doesn't really get annoyed by people:

1- playing new champions

2- feeding (as long as you aren't whining about jungle ganks constantly)

3- not having a lot of wards

4- missing smites

Our group does tend to get frustrated by:

1- bad initiations

2- extremely bad positioning or teamfight focus

3- poorly done splitpushing (eg, when everyone else is a base and you die for free. if baron is up. etc)

4- off-meta stuff (eg, double bruiser bot. certain champion choices like heal Garen against Nasus).

Pretty much... no one cares that much if you completely misplay the first 20 minutes of the game. If we have to deal with a 12/0 Tristana who wins the game at 23 minutes... at least it's over quick.

What does flare people up is when something terrible happens at the 40 minute mark. Part of that is because a lot of our group (myself, thunder, Cow, Karl) tend to gravitate towards teamfight focused champions and playstyle.

In closing... appealing to "normal games don't really matter why do you get so frustrated if i get to do ____ and throw" doesn't really work for our group since our group... mostly only plays Normals. It'd be different if it were more of an 80/20 split and when we played normals we were all drinking and doing stupid shit.

i do also think some of your frustration stems from being pidgeon-holed into support a lot recently. And when you get to play not-support, we get pissed off at Jungle Tryndamere (because it's a 4v5 for 15 minutes even if you get the early 800 gold dragon... and even if you carry at 40 minutes and win everytime. it's still frustrating). So you feel like either:

1- you play a role you have played way too much of recently and you don't want to do it anymore

2- when you do get a role you want to play everyone is angry at you before the game even starts.

Since it hasn't really been a problem with people getting invited and "stealing" mid when i'm in the group... i can definitely fill a bit more often. My original stance of "mid or dodge" was mostly because a few months ago i very rarely got mid and i was the fill-bitch and i got sick of it. i can certainly try to support more often if you think that is going to make the game a bit more enjoyable for you.

Sounds like I am being missed.

I have actually been trying to diversify my roles more. I have been playing some normals with Karl recently since he always seems to be online and not in game when I want to play. I am trying to get better at ADC since I feel it is my weakest role and when I play ranked and get stuck in that role it would be nice to actually contribute instead of being useless.

Top lane has also been a role I have been trying to get better at. I always seem to lose when I go there especially when I play renekton (2-8 with him in ranked atm...).

Pacov thing:

I don't have any problems playing with you recently since we haven't really had a chance. The last few days I have played normals you have been in game or afk when I sent invites. I spectated one game where you jungled tryn though and I was impressed. You had the most gold on the team and you were making nice plays all over the place so I can see why you enjoy play it. On that same note its not really a meta thing to do and playing a split pushing champion is hard on your team and extremely annoying for the enemy team so nobody really likes you in game. You will get a lot of hate for that play style just in general. Anyways I would be happy to play with you whenever.

I'll address some of the larger, systematic things that pacov brought up later when I have time.  I'll just address the specific case that pacov brought up here, which was indeed me getting upset about yet another support split push (although other pickups were also upset about the split push as well).

The facts as I remember them:

In this specific case, we were substantially ahead and had a strong teamfighting comp.  One of our pickups made the call to group.  4 of us grouped mid.  Pacov chose to override the team call and split push bot as support Soraka.  This froze out 4 of us for a substantial amount of time.  He eventually bananad down the first bot tower at the cost of his life, while we tried a quick grab of a mid tower.  We got caught, which led to very bad things.  The rest of the team, me included, largely blamed pacov for this since he ignored the grouping call in favor of split push support.

My comments:

Split push support is not a thing in the vast majority of cases.  Pacov says it was a bad rotation.  But pretty much all of us have repeatedly asked him to completely remove this rotation from the thought process.  You should almost never consider solo rotating a weak solo support like Soraka.  Especially when that rotation involves the support sitting 1v0 for a long period of time, which was the case here.  It is not useful to the team.  Even if there is a big wave there, it is not a support Soraka's job to go down and take it, especially when the rest of the team is grouping.  If this was the first or even the 10th time that this has happened, it would be no big deal, but this is happening very frequently

Now, my belief is that pacov's thought process is basically this: "I am sacrificing a death for a tower.  Tower is worth more than kill, so this is a good thing!".

This is not a good analysis, which is what I was trying to point out when pacov got upset and refused to listen.  While pacov is splitpushing as support, the other 80% of his team is able to do nothing.  They can't farm.  They can't establish vision.  They can't jungle.  Any small mistake they make will catastrophically snowball into multiple objectives, probably including a baron and inhib.  On the other hand, the other team is able to freely farm and establish vision.  Thus, its a bad play from a gold, vision, and risk of disaster perspective at that point in the game (very early in the game its fine).

Other champions can effectively split push because they can push down towers fast enough to make the team gold/xp/vision loss worth it. Support  Soraka/Janna/Leona cannot.  I don't understand why it is happening nearly every game when pacov plays champions like that.

Larger picture from this issue:

As has been pointed out, there are many things that our group actually doesn't whine much about.  But the one thing that will get people complaining is this: WHEN SOMEBODY DOES THE SAME NEGATIVE THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.  I think that complaints about this is reasonable.  After all, we play together a lot, and it is frustrating to have games lost due to the same person making the same (easily correctible) mistakes over and over again.

Now, I'm well aware that MadCast as a group is generally much more tolerant of people doing the same silly things over and over again.  They have many examples of players who do this and MadCast generally tolerates it remarkably well.  Many of these players are still in silver despite thousands of ranked games played and thousands more normal games played.

I and several others here find these silver players very frustrating to play with, and do not find them to be role models.

As I said previously, there are some other systemtic issues that I will address in a bit.

Aw - nice comments.  I appreciate the time and thought put into them.  Thanks!

rui - you have been banned for 3 days.  hue

Just to finalize that old ranked 5's team thing.  Apology accepted.  I really brought that up primarily to try to tie in how I view things (lack of being up front was hurtful and I'd rather not go through that again with pals). 

A bit here and there.  I try to fill to help out, but I'd typically rather be doing something other than support - much like most I'd imagine.

Other stuff you said, good.  This:

bah - I get the I want to win bit, but I really don't have a requirement or need to carry the game (though who doesn't want to ofc).  The problem is getting a bad attitude and tilting where I can be set off by this or that.  Just something I need to continue to work on.  It is fair to say that I tend to have problems with specific folks more than folks in general.  Again, stuff to work on - but not just for me I'd think.

More than I should - no doubt, but I really don't think its some crap you'll see me doing every game. That said, I sometimes do that with quite idiotic champs for such things (I mean... leona split push?) - at least raka has some decent wave clear.  Anyway, there's actually a reason I've been doing this more often (not saying its good - explaining why I have been) - I've been spending a lot of time playing with true split push champs - namely trynd (who actually sucks a bit after the ff change).  Anyway, when I put a bunch of time into a role, specifically when a role is a play style change, that has some carry over into my champ pool (sometimes with terrible, bad idea effect).  With trynd, mid/late, I try to create as much pressure on the map as I can.  Where this translates into crap is how I apply that play style into other roles.

To kick the dead horse that is my soraka support example.  I started off getting into a bad position - I wouldn't have even considered split pushing if I had not been where I was - but that led to me assessing the situation and making a call. The factors in my mind - enemy team location, our team location, gold/xp, tower objective, can my team outlast the siege while I put pressure on the map, what are the odds we'll lose anything major like and inhib or inhib tower if I make this play, will I be able to draw at least 1 of them to ease the pressure, odds of my success.  So, its not like herp derp, imma go get dat turret.  It's me reasoning and making a decision. Conversely, I could have just based and we'd have had that pressure mid along with a pretty big wave pushing in bot.  Option 2 is certainly safer.  Option 1 made the most sense to me based on where I was. etc.  No doubt it was an aggressive move though. 

All that said, no, I don't think you'll be seeing me split push a ton as support - you've seen me do it a few times and I get that folks dislike it.  I think my tendency to split like that in a role like support will fade off even more once I cycle through my trynd phase.

I appreciate the offer to play other roles.  Last thought - I really don't mind playing with other folks if people have a problem with me playing trynd in the jungle or doing things other than support.  God knows I'd be happier doing things I enjoy, eh. 

edit - had not read karls/cows comments when this was posted btw

Your memory of the Soraka push differs substantially from mine.  I will review video if possible when I have time.

hope you like the music to listen in this 3 days bann