Pacov's place to enjoy the show.

Update 5/25/2017

  • This thread is all done.  I've lost interest in jibba jibbing here, but its been fun.  Thanks for all the memories.  
  • I am streaming from time to time on twitch - generally just when I'm trying hard in ranked though.  If interested, you can check that out here:  https://www.twitch.tv/pacovdumptruck
 

Well, I started a thread back in Dec 2011 that’s seen a lot of activity (some 922,000 views over the course of a few years apparently...).  That thread had a good deal of tips/strategies/discussions about League of Legends from new and old players alike.  You can find the previous thread (now archived) here:  https://forums.joeuser.com/413863.  I think its time to start fresh with a new thread.

What’s this thread all about?
For those that followed the previous thread, the type of content you see here will be fairly consistent to what you are used to.  Please consider this a place to discuss LoL related content as you like.  I'll do the same and treat the thread as a blog as well where I talk about what’s going on with me in LoL.  Feel free to jump in and join the discussion if you like.

Quick background on me
I played a lot of Demigod as pacov/cheesuscrust. Back in August 2011, I started getting heavily involved in League of Legends, and folks from the community were kind enough to help me figure things out.  I play LoL most nights, stream, make videos and it’s my main gaming interest.

Some links 


Comments (Page 108)
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on Apr 15, 2015

To be fair, there IS a huge difference between a Morg who has Zhonyas and one who doesn't.

Morg can also be played in a very safe manner (similar to Janna), against single-target CC lanes. Blitz probably being the biggest one, and actually being one of his opponents last night and he WAS able to get a pretty early NLR. So there is some method to his madness (even if it is "situational" madness - which is the best kind of madness).

i agree that GP10 is "often" not going to be the strongest thing in the support, since you generally want to funnel gold into the ADC, rather than split it more evenly (your ADC will probably lose a handful of CS over the first 10-15 minutes due to slightly weaker initial lane presence).

i also am not convinced that like, GP10 lost us the game last night. Pretty sure that was a combination of:

  1. pacov getting DC'd for 2-3 minutes, and we get absolutely vision chocked during it

  2. Even though i was completely obliterating my lane, there was a 3v1 rotation that resulted in me losing BOTH midlane towers, so my "midlane fortress" was lost, and i lost a huge amount of my presence since i was using Barrier rather than using TP - though their teamcomp required me to take Barrier

  3. The "let's all die to save bot tower then lose it anyway AND dragon" botlane shenagins. We had a curious issue where it was 2v3 (?) for about 5 minutes, but people would keep dieing, respawning coming down into a brief 3v3, then one of us would die, they would repush, someone would respawn...

  4. Hecarim had a very tough time, rarely used TP (and when he did, it was very poorly done), and we lost all vision of toplane, resulting in a few red steals and eventually a sneaky baron to close out the game.

 

Our team comp was pretty good against theirs, regardless of the strong Lucian (3 melees, one of which was Udyr, against Anivia + Morgana). We did somewhat disrespect their dragons, due to their Yasuo + Lucian + Udyr being so effective at dragons, but that's just because of Morg DCs more than anything else. Being 2-0 in dragons really isn't a huge deal if we end up winning every teamfight later on... And at least 1 dragon was traded for a tower so it was more 2 dragons vs. 1 tower, which isn't that different.

 

That said, i do agree with Thunder and Karl: the real way to test it IS in Ranked SoloQ. After a half-dozen test games in Normals, in any case. (one advantage of that is also probably your own ADC won't know that you have gold runes, and is less likely to blame you for game-outcomes that had nothing to do with your runes. Or if, for example, Thunder was slightly-overcautious and gave up 6 CS when he really only needed to give up 2)

 

 

on Apr 15, 2015

oh - I didn't discover something new here, I'm just crating a bit. 

Thundercles

Those runes used to be standard on Supports

yeah - well... usually not the gold yellows - just the quints.  Never really been much of a strat since the gold changes in s4 if I remember right (eg more gold per min in general).

Thundercles

So that's two games that we pretty much learned nothing about whether GP/10 runes are worth the lack of combat stats.

yeah - I can just say you notice having more money more quickly.  Can't say its entirely worth it.  On morgana, I actually don't think its really hurting much.  The thing to note, I'd think, is that I'm not losing out much on the standard defensive stats. 

Thundercles

Also for me it didn't 'feel' bad at all laning with GDM so there might be something to this.

This.  That's the main thing - I think its complete garbage if its hurting you in lane.  I don't think it is.  That's why I'm quite specific on the single champ I advocating.  The main potential difference is in HP yellows.  Anyway, I don't know that its worth it... but I don't think its hurting anything. 

Krazikarl

For example, lets say that you could choose 500 bonus gold at 0 minutes, or 1000 bonus gold at 30 minutes. Everybody would take the 500 gold because its better to have it early and use it to snowball (i.e. gaining more gold because you gain an advantage which you use to gain a larger advantage and thus more gold and so forth).

Right, but that's not the same thing as saying with my method you could back at X min and get more pots to sustain and continue to get pinks, etc.  The cumulative effect is nice, ofc, but its a role that generally doesn't cs (unless you are smart enough to get your adc killed so you can farm - hue - I remember those lee sin kicks).  Extra gold is good winning or losing.  Anyway, that's just to say I'm not just focused on the total result over time, but also the options that occur as the lane progresses. 

The extra gold generation potential could open up different options - but its worth doing the math.  For instance, let's say I'm on my 1st back as a support and could get a sightstone or pick up a ruby crystal and the upgrade to spell thief (tier 2 upgrade) + 2 sight wards.  Now I'm gaining 30 gold when my stacks are up and doing some increased dmg.  I'm out the money on the sight wards I bought (150 gold).  Realistically, I can make up that 150 gold in 1-2 minutes with the tier 2 spell thief.  compared to 3-4 at BEST with the un-upgraded item.  Anyway, not entirely sure that's an optimal path (I like having a sightstone on 1st back in most cases), just a thought of what could be done. 

Last, consider that, by design, the supports will get the majority of their money during the laning phase.  Barring getting (stealing) kills/assists, etc, that's where the masteries get you the bonus gold when creeps die.  That's where I can proc spell thief consistently for that added gold.  That's where I can get bonus gold for hitting enemy champs.  Laning is a supports bread and butter and they take a big hit to income running around warding or going to gank, etc.  Granted stuff starts to pay out on assists.  At any rate, morg is setup to be able to easily proc spell thief (easier than any other support I think), which means she has high gold potential than most - also maybe another reason to actually rush the tier 2 spell thief. 

Krazikarl

Remember that its really the ADC that matters here. Nobody cares about the support's bonus gold generation if you have to back a couple times and the ADCs gold generation gets hurt as a result.

Yup - its a bad strat if the adc is negatively impacted.  I don't think they are with morg. 

on Apr 15, 2015

awuffleablehedgie

i also am not convinced that like, GP10 lost us the game last night

I didn't even know that was a discussion. I don't think gp/10 impacted us negatively in that game.  my unfortunate dc amongst other things you listed did.  Felt like we were actually doing really well prior to that dc. 

awuffleablehedgie
(your ADC will probably lose a handful of CS over the first 10-15 minutes due to slightly weaker initial lane presence).

Well, that's interesting.  I don't think we noticed that to be the case, but I can see why you'd have that conclusion.  Morg still has a pretty high lane presence with the threat of bindings though - and the added dmg with spell thief.  I'm doing pretty consistent dmg, albeit every slightly less I'd think (also something to do the math on - I'd normally be running magic pen, but I pretty much never put more than 1 point in her aoe clear until later (max Q).  So, keeping that in mind, most of my dmg comes from spell thief and the hitting like a hammer with upgraded bindings + adc follow up.  My pool mostly keeps them from generating much and just drops their hp a wee bit. 

on Apr 15, 2015

holy slow ass day at work... save me pls.

on Apr 15, 2015

Well, that's interesting

Well, like i said, it's only a handful. Typically < 100 gold for the first 10-15 minutes, and almost no impact from then on. Lane matchups and jungler ganks have FAR more of an impact in the typical game.

The only time it, really truly, has an impact is when you die only barely (< 50 hp) and health or armor quints would have saved you. Suddenly, there's a 300 gold swing, your ADC gets zoned (or dies instead of getting the kill!), etc.

So, it's going to be something like:

 - your ADC probably loses somewhere between 50-100 gold over 10 minutes. Generally will not be a huge difference (an extra hp pot or ward?)

 - you gain much more gold, enabling you to purchase additional wards or items that far surpass what you would generally get from Quints at that point in time

 - occasionally, you "barely" die by 50 hp. This death cases something like a 600-1000 gold gold swing (first blood + assist is 450. ADC losses 6 creeps, another 150. Enemy ADC comes back with a BFS, yours doesn't, they get to get a 20 CS lead over you).

 - sometimes, your item thresholds win a teamfight that wouldn't have been won otherwise (eg, Zhonyas 5 minutes faster in a close game). To a lesser extent, you could say the same thing about buying an 2 pink wards and securing objectives, but that's "only" 100g. Supports can afford that with only an assist.

 

You can make a strong argument that the advantages of #2 often can surpass the disadvantages of #1. As you said, Morg poses a lot of threat by existing, she can be played effectively + safely in certain lanes (eg, Blitz). That said, #2 will not "always" surpass #1. For example, you are the "aggro" against a hypercarry: Graves versus Kog. It is essential Graves gets his items ASAP in that lane, and support Morg won't outscale Kog. Luckily, you have 20 rune pages and you chose a more aggressive setup in that case. You could say the same thing if you are playing the "scaling" lane: Kog might need you to have that 50 more hp level 1 so you can posture aggressively, thereby securing him the farm he needs so desperately. 

#3 and #4 are rather difficult. Even if you lose bot lane because "the worst" happens, it doesn't necessarily mean you lose the game. It does, however, probably drop you to only a 30% chance of winning. Similarly, a successful #4 can push a game into near-certain victory.

Luckily, both of these are also easy to decide about in champ select. If the enemy team is very melee heavy, #4 becomes more likely. If both bot lanes are passive, and the jungler is someone who is unlikely to gank botlane early, #3 becomes very unlikely without large misplays.

 

As long as the expected value of #2 + #4 exceeds #1 + #3 you're going to be okay. The only way to truly verify that, however, is by playing AT LEAST 10-20 games of Morgana in Ranked SoloQ (not duoQ...) and only once you attain whatever you think is your fair MMR. So that's a lot of work \:

 

on Apr 15, 2015

I think there are a few rules you should play by when using this build.

DO NOT try to fight 2v2's unless they are absurdly in your favor (some how you poked down there ADC or support to a very low health while you are sitting pretty at full).

ONLY fight when you have jungler help during lane phase

NEVER try to do invades at level 1

After lane phase is over you should of theoretically buried your stat deficit in item gains so feel free to go ham now.

If you follow these rules and come out of lane phase "even" with the other support and ADC then you are techniqually "ahead" of them from your fancy runes and mastery greedy gold stuff. I think these rules will also make the frequency at which you come out of lane phase "even" or "ahead" happen more often.

on Apr 15, 2015

awuffleablehedgie

The only way to truly verify that, however, is by playing AT LEAST 10-20 games of Morgana in Ranked SoloQ (not duoQ...) and only once you attain whatever you think is your fair MMR. So that's a lot of work \:

heh - yeah - I'm probably not going to do that and, realistically, will just keep trying it out here and there and make note of how things play out. I'm thinking more of it as an experiment and am wondering how far I can progress the concept.  There are just too many variables.

My starting point is still that I don't think its worth it if we can demonstrate that it will hurt her adc.  And even that's difficult to fully analyze, but we could start with does an adc necessarily lose cs as a result of GDM.  And the follow up, outside of CS, is an adc at a disadvantage due to GDM in fights.  All focus only on laning phase.

Does an ADC necessarily lose CS as a result of GDM during laning?

I'd argue, no - not if she's played well (eg exactly the same way someone would play her with any other rune setup imo).  There's no difference in play style between GDM and normal morg.  She's roughly as durable as a normal morg setup (common to have hp yellow or hp arm + mpen reds) and my setup is only off on arm by 1 in comparison. I also, depending on setup, do less damage.  To be fair, its not a huge difference based on power levels early game for her, but it is a difference.I don't think that minor variation results in unfavorable trades, etc. 

Now, where there is a more real threat.... if I look at the stats before a game and I see the support is running gold per anything, I'm generally going to try to break that person.  I'm also very likely to even say something before the game to my teammates about it - which will likely result in additional pressure on the lane.  Now, not everyone is like me ofc, but I'm literally going to work very, very hard, to punish that support as I will better stats than them.  BUT - that said, if they are using GDM and I am playing another support - well, they are still morgana. They can still easily proc spell thief, still have black shield + binding.  Morg has a pretty good kit to avoid that sort of aggression.  As opposed, to say, a nami running gold per... as I would crap on that champ with a gold per setup. 

Anyway, I don't think this costs the adc anything.

Is the adc at a disadvantage due to GDM in fights during laning?

Nope.  You are morgana - as long as you aren't being a jack arse and skimping on wards, you still have excellent peel and engage.  If you die because of a small hp difference, you are not doing it right.  She ain't leona - she shouldn't be chilling in melee range needlessly (pre 6 anyway). 

on Apr 15, 2015

OMG_ZEX

DO NOT try to fight 2v2's unless they are absurdly in your favor (some how you poked down there ADC or support to a very low health while you are sitting pretty at full).

This is really off.  Compare the stats you are trading for the gold per.  If you'd normal be doing an AP setup, well, you are  roughly as squishy - just lacking a small amount of damage.  If you normally play full tank morg, then I... I guess you like to play full tank morg?  In that case, you are actually down a bit of health and armor perhaps... that said, I don't know any full tank morgs.  (eg max health/arm/mr setup).  The literal and actual difference is more than likely 72 hp, if even. Also, you are still morg... and you still have morgs kit.  If you get blown up its probably because you did something really stupid. 

Anyway, I do not think the adc needs to make ANY adjustments over how you'd normally play with a morg.  Barring my disconnect and a few missed black shields due to poor play, I doubt thunder noticed anything last night related to my setup.

on Apr 15, 2015

I always aire on the side of playing safe. If you try to fight at all your stat deficit could impact the outcome. If you don't fight you avoid the chance that your lower hp/resistances/damage will effect the outcome.

on Apr 15, 2015

awuffleablehedgie

The only time it, really truly, has an impact is when you die only barely (< 50 hp) and health or armor quints would have saved you.

Well, the main concern is setting the early flow of the lane.  As Thunder says, you aren't going to win reasonable 2v2s.  Often times, the other team will realize this (since they might look at your runes/masteries or just notice that you have crap stats).  That means they force you back.  They might not kill you, but they get quality zone time right away on your ADC, and there just isn't much you can do about it if you are at a huge statistical deficiency.  So your ADC slowly loses some CS.

Yeah, the support slowly gains gold.  So you are transferring gold from the ADC to the support.  Which is not desirable.

As pacov says, the support can shop for potions more!  After all, they have more money to spend on them.  But that nullifies the gold advantage, and while the support is away shopping, the ADC probably gets zoned at least some.  So thats hardly a win either.

 

Or, lets look at it another way.  Let's all imagine that pacov was playing ADC in SoloQ and his support said to him before the game:

"Hey, I'm going to play a really greedy build that has a decent chance of causing you to lose out early because we can't 2v2 under any circumstance early on.  But don't worry, the support will be getting more gold over the course of the game".

Do you think that pacov would have a positive reaction to that?

on Apr 15, 2015

Oh please, claiming that there will be no difference due to laning due to the loss of ~17 AP and ~70 hp is absurd.

Those amounts of stats around level 1-5 is HUGE.  Pretending that it won't matter in 2v2 situations is silly - we've all played with the wrong runes/masteries and felt the effect.  It is especially large when the opponent can obviously notice it ("HEY, THAT GUY HAS ALL GOLD GENERATION") and play qualitatively differently to take advantage.

on Apr 15, 2015

Is the adc at a disadvantage due to GDM in fights during laning?

Nope.  You are morgana - as long as you aren't being a jack arse and skimping on wards, you still have excellent peel and engage.  If you die because of a small hp difference, you are not doing it right.  She ain't leona - she shouldn't be chilling in melee range needlessly (pre 6 anyway). 

You have 17 less AP until you acquire either NLR or buy a very early Frost Queen (Frostfang first back is not uncommon, so you aren't making any real AP gain there). That equals 10.5 more damage you or your ADC take each time your shield gets popped for at least the first 9 levels or so. i imagine your shield gets popped probably at least once every 2 minutes.

Over the course of the laning phase, it's easy to see they would lose at least 1 health pot's worth of hp. So it has to cost your ADC at least 35 gold..

Regarding level 1 and 2 fights... The one that is the EASIEST to be zoned off of CS:

You yourself are also -72 HP. That's just as much as Ignite level 2 (eg, your opponents have a "free" Ignite on you for the first 2 levels and 90% of an Ignite level 3). -1 Armor is the loss of another ~6 PEHP level  assuming you go 9 defense.

All-in-all, that's more than a 10% reduction of stats for the first level, so that is significant... Even if you took 100% magic damage (lack of armor means nothing, your bonus 5.2 MR is being used 100%), you are still about 6.5% squishier level 1 (672 / ~600 hp x 1.052). That isn't "equally durable".

Put another way:

How much of a disadvantage would a midlaner be if they ONLY bought 2 health pots, instead of DRing + 2? It'd be brutal.

That is roughly how much behind you are in combat stats (that is, not including mana stuff). Technically, it's even worse because DRing is 60 HP, 15 AP versus 72 HP, 17 AP deficient you have.

 

These are all VERY real costs, that WILL result in disadvantages. Since you aren't a midlaner and you don't have to fight for CS, so you aren't punished directly nearly as bad as the aforementioned DRing example. You're able to contribute meaningfully while standing pretty far back. And Zhonyas is big.

OF COURSE, Jungle "interference" and lane-matchups more than make up more than the 6% delta: Even without a Dorans Ring, a Level 1 Ziggs is probably going to do just fine against a Level 1 Anivia.

If you are already in a strongly-favored lane, a 6% delta is not going to make you suddenly get steamrolled. Just like a 6% delta probably won't have a huge impact if you get level 2 ganked by Lee Sin. Skill factor alone can completely overcome even extremely unfair lane matchups.

But that difference IS there. An ADC will lose some pressure with "GDM" versus "Krepo Morgana".

It is much better to spend time debating the following instead:

"Is the expected gains of an early Zhonyas and additional pink wards larger than the expected cost of CS/health pots for my ADC and the potential death and the opprotunity cost of not being able to fast-push for a level 2 fight or fight a 4v4 invasion?"

 

 

on Apr 15, 2015

New laptop in the near future... got my taxes back... hopefully will stop the freezes... still not sure what's causing it.

Also... if there's room, cow, may i get in on that fantasy league for summer?

Thanks,

SWAN BB

on Apr 15, 2015

Or, lets look at it another way.  Let's all imagine that pacov was playing ADC in SoloQ and his support said to him before the game:

"Hey, I'm going to play a really greedy build that has a decent chance of causing you to lose out early because we can't 2v2 under any circumstance early on.  But don't worry, the support will be getting more gold over the course of the game".

Do you think that pacov would have a positive reaction to that?

ADC players do that all the time. Eg, picking Kog into Graves or playing Twitch without Thresh.

Lane match-ups have a much larger impact on the first 3 levels than the 6% delta.

The difference "is" there and i think that part is indisputable (hopefully my last post demonstrates that).

Additionally, Morgana can be played in a similar fashion as Janna. It wasn't uncommon to see greedy, high-AP builds before on Janna (Season 3 Morellos? Midgame Mejia's). Of course, it also wasn't uncommon to see extremely selfless Jannas with only Mobility Boots and wards. 

Pacov can certainly demonstrate a positive EV in its best-case scenarios where level 3 is unlikely to happen. (farm lanes or in lanes where Morgana is extremely favored)

 

on Apr 15, 2015



heh - yeah - I'm probably not going to do that and, realistically, will just keep trying it out here and there and make note of how things play out. I'm thinking more of it as an experiment and am wondering how far I can progress the concept.  There are just too many variables.

There would be less variables in Ranked.  You'd have people your own skill level trying their hardest.  And not playing Yasuo ADC.  

Experiments conducted under sub-optimal conditions are the worst kind because of inaccurate feedback.  Gold Digger Morg might be absolute garbage but if you play it in games with DanKnee as your ADC against Gold players, you might start thinking it's good.  Or you might actully be onto something strong and innovative but end up shelving it because you end up having bad experiences laning against Challengers.

It's not just Teambuilder.  Matchmaking is shitty when it involves groups of 4-5 with players who have large MMR gaps.

 

 

Does an ADC necessarily lose CS as a result of GDM during laning?

I'd argue, no - not if she's played well (eg exactly the same way someone would play her with any other rune setup imo).

Well, that sounds like it just goes back to Karl's point about needing to outplay people to make a strategy work.

Combat Stats > Future Gold Earning Potential at the start of the game.  Unless you outplay your opponents or they don't adapt and take advantage of their early game superiority.  

It sounds like you feel you have a Rune setup that essentially nullifies the disadvantage that GP/10 runes give you in the early game.  I don't think that's true but I don't really know that for sure.  Perhaps Morgana is the one Support who can essentially go without Quints or Seals and not lose any effectiveness whatsoever early game.

If you're never going to take this experiment into Ranked we'll never really know.

 

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