I didn't have anything to do with the mid push - I ran from that engage.  Why are you trying to get me to call out teammates?  I'm sure that they realize that that wasn't the ideal play, so there is no need for me and you to call them out.

On the other hand, you consistently ungroup for reasons that I don't understand, so I think that there is a reason to bring it up.

What I'm saying is this: there is a very consistent pattern when people play with you.  You leave the team to do your own thing, one of your teammates gets caught by a grouped team, then you blame them for getting caught.  This subject has come up at least twice before in this thread.  It has also come up repeatedly in inhouse games.

It's especially frustrating for me since I am usually playing melee bruisers, which means I get to be completely useless and can do nothing but sit under a tower watching you solo something.

Instead of consistently putting your teammates into a position where they can do nothing good, and only bad things can happen with them, you might want to consider just playing with your team more and soloing by yourself less.

Call them out or tell them to back?  Too busy being focused on me and arguing. 

You are entitled to your opinion.  What I'm saying is this - I disagree.  You over generalize (pacov always does X), ignore the root cause (poor play by over extending without vision), and then distract the team as the "shot caller" by arguing instead of telling folks to back up or pinging retreat.  In your mind, if I'd have continued mid, we'd have destroyed them.  In reality, based on what happened, we'd all get wiped as our mid still wouldn't have been there at the time we'd be getting jumped and engaged on.

I get where you are coming from based on the few games we played tonight, though.  I'm going to start to duo queue ranked with peter to build synergy. 

You two are ridiculous.

I really love playing dominion, because you can play a lot of different champs, and can almost always pick the one you want to play that game.  So because I've gotten into playing Irelia lately, I can pick her, without being forced out by someone calling top.

If you want to invoke reality, please go back and watch your own video.

Hunny got there as the engage happened - he was actually involved in it.  So if you had been there, it was an obvious 5v5 where we had baron.

The bottom line is that the number of good things that can happen when they are grouped as 5 but we are not is VERY small.  But the number of bad things that can happen is very large.

You consistently choose to put your own team in a tough spot for little to no gain, then blame your teammates when something bad inevitably happens.  Please, just keep it simple and play with your team.

I've told you this and if you go back and read previous posts in this thread, other people have told you this too.  IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO PLAY WHEN YOU SUDDENLY GET LEFT 4v5.  Especially when they have strong engages (e.g. champs like Zac).  Please, just be with the team so we can use our own strong engages, instead of putting your team in a situation where they can do absolutely nothing positive, but can have a bad thing happen very easily.

A game with PeterDumpTruck had a lack of team cohesion in it?

Shocking.

Yup.  Imagine what happens when we don't win 100% of the games we play together. 

Karl - I don't think we are going to cover any new information here and neither of us appear all that interested in listening to the other. 

Are you playing her much on SR or are you mostly doing Dom games now, bryff?  I'm actually a bit surprised that she would be a good pick on dom. 

Back to my exciting ash crit rune jibber jabber - so, the crit dmg % is actually 38% + 5% from masteries - so a total of 43% additional crit dmg.  The rune page setup I'm using is 38% crit dmg + 13 armor.  The lack of scaling MR was actually a bit of a bitch in 1 game.  I was hit with an ez ult that normally would not have killed me and I thought I would be safe, but it hit like more of a truck without those scaling mr runes... so, another fall back to running the crit dmg setup.  Now, if I substitute the crit blues for scaling mr, I end up with 33% crit dmg, 13 arm, 24 mr at level 18.  That seems to make decent sense, but I'm not sure yet.  It's only a loss of 5% crit dmg.  so (skipping armor mitigation and including the 5% from masteries), if I do 200 base damage, with no crit runes, I'd do 600 dmg.  With 38% crit, I'd do 676.  With 43%, I'd do 686.  Based on that, its likely better to sub in the scaling mr.  300 dmg w/ 38% crit = 1014 dmg.  300 dmg w/43% = 1029.  So, not a big enough difference to justify...

Now... some math with ie.  This gives me 250% crit dmg + whatever crit dmg additions.  So, 200 dmg + 255% crit (no runes - just masteries) = 710 dmg.  200 dmg + 288% crit = 776.  200 dmg + 293% crit = 786. 

Last set - 300 dmg + 255% crit = 1065.  300 dmg + 288% crit = 1164.  300 dmg + 293% =  1179. 

Conclusion - the dmg % gain at having blues as crit runes is not exceedingly worth it.  If I had 100% crit rate and 100% armor pen, I'd only be doing an extra 10 or so dmg per hit.  While scaling mr might actually have a real impact on keeping me alive..

OK... so I continue my exciting analysis.  What if I used just crit dmg % reds and built everyone else normal style - eg yellow arm, scaling mr blue, ad quints, and red crit dmg %.  This results in a 20% crit dmg increase (+5% for masteries, so 25%).  So, at 200 dmg with no crit bonus, I'd do 600 dmg.  At 200 dmg w/ 25% crit bonus, I'd do 650.  with 38%, it was 676, and 43% it was 686. 

And the 300 dmg output deal with no ie - 0% crit = 900 dmg.  25% = 975; 38%= 1014, 43% = 1029.  So, the difference here between 20% and 38% is 54 dmg.  Nothing insanely substantial.  300 dmg + ie and 25% bonus = 1125

2nd conclusion - The crit dmg difference becomes much more apparent once IE is factored in.  with ie, no crit runes, and 300 dmg, thats 1065 per crit.  With the max based on my setup, I'd have done 300 dmg + 293% crit, its 1179.  A gain of 114 dmg per crit. 

All of this points me to another thought which seems pretty obvious, but crit damage is incredibly strong.  I'd normally be hitting for 300 dmg a shot.  1 crit and I could instantly do 1179 to character that typically has around 2300 hp.  A high crit rate with that level of dmg output is sick.

All that jibba jabber aside, I think I'm going to swap in blue scaling mr.  25% crit rate still seems like it might be acceptable, but not sure. 

Current setup after math = 33% crit dmg, 24 mr at 18, + 13 armr

The reason I went troll items in that raka game was because of our hecarim/diana. They fed so horribly bad it was pathetic. Running into 3v1's and 4v2's thinking they could accomplish something was just pathetic. Kog was so behind in the beginning and only really got farm after we had lost bot and caitlyn was fed off hec/diana. 

To adapt to this meta you have to play with a mentality of getting kills right now. The meta in gold throws farming out the window and focuses on roaming and dominating your lane with Red pot all-ins. I hate this meta and see it as the easy way out. I hate playing champions that have an I-WIN button built into there kit (Zed-ult, ahri-ult). These champions counter how I like to play, which is farm for  a while, group, and win team fights. 

More about caitlyn. I wish you could see more of my past game history. So many of those games have had caityln on the other team and I don't think ONCE did my ADC win the lane vs her. She has a stupidly strong lane phase and trades off basically nothing for it. Her late and mid game are both very strong.  Most champions that are similar to her have some kind of trade off. Varus has long range poke but his auto attack isn't the as long as caitlyns. Kog'maw only gets his long range from a skill that has a cool down and he has NO ESCAPE ABILITY, he also had a skill shot ult that has a very small hit box unlike caityln's harass skill that has a hit box that is basically half a lane wide. IMO she has a very low skill cap to play well. Other champions played at a higher skill level out shine her but in gold players of that caliber do not exist. 

RE: About my runes. It has been a long while sense I have looked at my runes I have been in the habit of buying champions. Many of the runes I have collected are from when I was new to level 30. I should probably consider getting more runes before I get new champions and fix up my pages. Thanks for bring my attention to this hedgie but in all seriousness I don't know if swapping out a few runes will make my chances of beating some of these match-ups all that much higher. The champs I like are just rough to play in this meta. 

@crit runes:

Are you sure those numbers are correct?

Let me math this out for you:

+33% Crit damage versus 15 AD (pure crit reds + quints versus pure AD reds + quints) 

Base Case (no runes at all):

300 damage + 255% crit == 765 (it is 300 * 2.55, not 300 * 3.55)

Crit Runes:

300 damage + 288% crit == 864 (~100 damage gained per crit)

AD Runes:

315 damage + 255% crit == 803 (~38 damage per crit, +15 damage per normal)

At this (rather arbitrary) damage point, if you have a crit chance of > 25%, you'll do more damage (4 normals @+15 ~= 1 crit @+60). 

Here is your more basic formula for the average base damage of an autoattack (so we are ignoring ArP, AS, etc) - and frenzy

Base AD + (Base AD * (2 + (crit damage)) * crit %)

For example, 100 base AD with a 10% chance to crit and only the crit mastery:

100 + (100 * 2.05 * 0.10) == 120.5 average

DPS gained from crit runes 

ad + (ad * (2.05 + 0.33) * crit %) w/o IE -> ad (2.38 * crit % + 1) if you simplify

ad + (ad * (2.55 + 0.33) * crit %) w/ IE

DPS gained from AD runes 

(ad + 15) + ( (ad+15) * (2.05) * crit %) w/o IE

(ad + 15) + ( (ad+15) * (2.55) * crit %) w/ IE

Break even point (0 <= y <= 1) - assuming no auto-crit for your first autoattack

x ( 2.38y + 1) == (x+15)(2.05y + 1)

x ( 2.88y + 1) == (x+15)(2.55y + 1)

Your item thresholds:

63 (+15 for runes) - level 1, Dorans, +3 AD mastery

76.4 (+15 for runes) - level 6, Dorans, +3 AD

135.7 (+15 for runes) - level 11, Dorans, BFS, Zeal/PD, +3 AD mastery

175 (+15 for runes) - level 16, Dorans, IE, PD, +3 AD mastery

221 (+15 for runes) - level 18, Dorans, IE, PD, LW, +3 AD mastery

236 (+15 for runes) - level 18, IE, PD, LW, BotRK, +3 AD mastery

Other stuff:

AD buff from Sona (+4 - +20)

AD buff from Baron (+40 @ 18)

AD buff from Red Pot (+15)

Before IE:

If you solve for the inequality (so that crit runes are better than AD) - again, assuming no auto-crit for your first autoattack:

1- it is always worse at AD levels lower than 138 (even with 100% crit rate)

2- After 138 AD, the amount of crit you need to break even starts dropping very quickly, then rounds off

    @150 you "only" need 80% crit

    @175 you only need 55% crit

    @200 you only need 42% crit

    @250 you only need 30% crit

After IE:

1- it is always worse at AD levels lower than 161 (even with 100% crit rate)

2- After 161 AD, the amount of crit you need to break even starts dropping very quickly, then rounds off

    @175 you "only" need 77% crit

    @200 you only need 54% crit

    @250 you only need 34% crit

That said, everyone knows AD runes fall off, they are for last hitting. If you want scaling runes, you go ArP - and not going to do that calculation because that is freaking hard. So it isn't a surprise that crit % outscale AD. 

Now what about the first auto-crit? This makes the formula somewhat more complicated:

x*(critdamage) + (number of shots)*(old formula) 

Before IE:

1- It is always worse at AD levels lower than 93 (2.38x > 2.05(x+15))

2- After 93 AD, it is always better with 1 shot.

3- How about multiple shots?

General rules (since this is a complex multi-variate and difficult to see trends):

   less shots -> favors crit since the upfront burst is higher and the flat AD has to "catch up" with non-crits 

   more AD -> favors crit, since the initial crit is larger and adding 15 to 200 is less significant than adding 15 to 100.

   more crit -> favors crit (obviously), since more crit -> more crit damage

   2 shots:

      @100: Always worse

      @150: Always better

      @200: Always better

   3 shots:

      @100: Always worse

      @150: must have 30% crit (kind of random though because 2 shots with 33% crit can still not-crit then you're behind)

      @200: Always better

   5 shots:

      @100: Always worse

      @150: must have 55% crit (less random because with 4 shots and 55% crit you'll probably crit twice)

      @200: must have 18% crit

  10 shots:

      @100: Always worse

      @150: must have 69% crit 

      @200: must have 31% crit

After IE:

1- It is always worse at AD levels lower than 116 (2.88x > 2.55(x+15))

2- After 116 AD, it is always better with 1 shot

3- How about multiple shots?

   2 shots:

      @150: must have 33% crit

      @200: Always better

      @250: Always better

   3 shots:

      @150: must have 83% crit

      @200: must have 4% crit

      @250: Always better

   5 shots:

      @150: Always worse

      @200: must have 29% crit

      @250: must have 9% crit

  10 shots:

      @150: Always worse

      @200: must have 43% crit

      @250: must have 23% crit

Evaluation:

Though, predictably, they scale better than AD reds, your midgame is very badly hurt if you don't rush IE first, and your level 1 is not as good as you think it is. 

Also, IE + PD/SS completely neglects LS, and you have no LS in your quints. So if you do have a bad trade...

hedgie - I'll do some testing after working tomorrow... BUT - if you get a chance, would you do a quick screenshot of ash with no bonus crit dmg criting at level 1.  My understanding is that a crit is equal to 200% + your base dmg.  So, if you have 100 base, you would crit for 100 + dbl that value = 300.  From what I viewed, I had slightly less than that value and I assumed that accounted for armor.  Eg I'd expect to see like 270-380 dmg on an adc.  If you don't get a chance, I'll just run a custom after work. 

if its just 100% bonus dmg, I'd expect to see someone dealing 200 base to do 400 as a crit.  If its 200% bonus, then I'd expect to see 600 dmg.  My math, btw, is literally (base dmg * % crit dmg) + base dmg.  I start % crit dmg at 200%. 

I also know that if I did 50 dmg and it was a 100% bonus, my total dmg would be 100 dmg. 

fug it - i did the test - here's the ss.  I ran support runes/masteries, so no crit bonus of any sort.  My base dmg is 59.  So, if its just a flat 100% bonus, then I'd expect to see 118 dmg.  If its 200%, then I'd expect to see 59+59+59 = 177.  Both numbers would be a little lower due to armor mitigation.  For instance, my build takes 22% less dmg from aa.... hmm...

actually smeh.... I did 105 dmg on a creep taking 11% less dmg.  That number backs up the flat 100% dmg bonus... not sure how I got mixed up. 

anyway, proper math is, AFAIK (base dmg x 100% crit).  So, you'd just dbl your base normally (50 + 50 = 100 dmg).  Working formula is (base dmg x (100% base crit + bonus crit dmg %)) + base dmg. 

yeah you just normally double the base without any crit increase... that's the normal thing.

Otherwise it is (2+crit bonus)*AD.

Your very formula is just a more complex form of that that isn't simplified:

x * (1+crit bonus) + x

x (1 + crit bonus + 1)

(2 + crit bonus)*x

So that's the formula for the damage a crit does. Pretty straightforward. Average DPS is a different formula since you aren't critting all the time.

though you should totally try out Sword of the Divine. Zeal > IE > SotD. Might work with your build. 4 crits all in a row.

And Volley lets you keep up your DPS a bit more.

Mayhaps.  Definitely some potential there, but also feels crazy.  current ashe build is doran's blade/zeal/boot of swift/pd/ie/lw/botrk.  I still need to swap in SS over pd and see how that plays.  I just think its a smeh idea as the ash setup is a kiting build.  Not a heck of a lot of kiting to do when I've got them under the tower due to the extra push caused by SS.  Still going to try it though.

reading over your math after determining the proper crit dmg formula.

Well, I don't think that my level 1 (outside of level 1 teamfight, mind you) is really all that amazing.  An ash running to try to land that guaranteed crit is usually pretty easy to dodge at the start of laning.  And if you are on blue side, well, you are likely at a very low crit rate after doing dbl golums, so no guaranteed bonus damage.  Mid/Late game, imo, is where her passive currently shines.  Eg I have a base crit chance of 55% or so, that quickly rises to 100%.  Or I'm guaranteed to return to lane with 100% crit chance.  That said, I oddly find it fairly easy to last hit with her on this setup. 

I'm still sticking with completing pd or perhaps ss and then going for ie.   I actually think the lower damage is just fine with the kiting potential being there... and the higher mobility from boots of swiftness + pd/ss.  You might be spot on and that I should just get the zeal + boots and rush IE at that point.  Once that IE is finished, I'm pretty well melting the enemy adc.  Prior to ie, my burst damage is a complete joke and its just about kiting and sustained dmg.  Nice if I hit a crit, ofc, but not terrifying unless I hit like 2-3 crits in a row.  I think the build really shines at mid game where I can kite and completely out damage the enemy. 

Anyway, even with ashe, crit rune dmg is rot early and then very strong mid and late.  Another thought - there's only 1 item that you can buy that increases crit dmg.  But there are a few options for increasing armor pen.  As long as you are going an adc that will be working on crit chance and sustained ad, it still seems semi viable. 

I've been getting botrk as a last item and tossing a vamp scepter into my build as needed.  Not having lifesteal until late is a problem with the build, but I'm always picking up a few red pots when I shop for sustain to handle any bad trade. Also of note, even on a bad trade, I'm still effectively trading most of the time due to the slows/kiting. 

I think I will do this.  I'll prob try in a bot match to get a feel for the activation of sotd. 

I'm not sure if Irelia is good on dominion, but since pretty much anyone can be built for dominion (just build tanky) it doesn't matter too much.  I think I currently have 50% or so win rate with her.  But I did learn to play her some more, being as I did 2 games in a row in which I did bot lane against the same person, same champ and got destroyed game 1, and I pwned the other dude game 2.

Are attack speed/LS marks quints a good setup on Irelia?