Are you kidding me?  I don't know if Pacov could have trolled his own team much harder.

-Bitching at Swan for not warding after letting Swan (who I assume might have been on his way to ward?) get murdered a screen away while he got 3 CS instead.

-Fighting (not getting caught, but picking a fight!) 1v4 and then bitching about Cow letting him die alone.

-Oh yes... and there was split pushing that accomplished nothing but giving a kill... good thing he wasn't a problem later.

That's all the really good parts that I saw before my internet went out... bummer cause it was pretty entertaining.  Anyway Hedgie, I don't think it's that helpful to point out faults in peoples champion choices and team comps in losses that were from a teammate fucking around.

fair enough - it is pretty difficult to win teamfights when your main CC tank is ff split pushing anyway, and it seems here pacov pretty much intended to lose the game anyway.

On another note, awesome job in your final ranked game last night!  Stupid internet was cutting out, so the last thing I got to see was your ult coming off CD right when it looked like the other team was going to ace you... but instead, pentakill for your Tris!

Sorry I missed the rest of that one, what I saw was pretty intense...

omg yes. if i had died 0.5 seconds earlier i never would have gotten that ult off and we would have lost there

yah got me thunder. 

re: the GP mid bit.  I agree with hedgie's commentary and comparison to nunu top.  Think you summed it up really well.  Good lane, but not an incredibly useful pick for the team.  What I took from some of cow's picks (think we played quite a few games yesterday) is that he's just looking to have fun and play, as opposed to running his best champs, etc.  This meant rengar jungle, gp mid, etc.  It's not like he's troll picking, but just more that he made "this is what I want to do" sort of picks.  Perfectly fine... I just got a wee bit trolly. a weeee bit.... wwwwweeee bit AND probably should have just buggered off a game or 2 earlier. 

Back to this without blowing if off now.  So, blue theory fun and some simple math.  When I jungle, I always want all of the jungle buffs.  They are there for me, but can obviously be donated as deemed appropriate.  The question re: the 2nd blue, in my mind anyway, is what is gained or lost by donating it.  For instance, lee sin or even GP is mid.  I don't see hooking either of them up with blue the 2nd time around as worth it or smart.  GP might get to fire a few extra q's to harass.  Maybe worth it.  Lee will have some faster cooldowns.  But the donation is a decent amount of xp as well.  Now, other champs I can very easily see donating blue. But when you get into manaless champs or champs that have 1 form of poke that uses mana, I'm much less inclined.  The main reason, outside of the obvious, is that I'm typically about to hit level 6 once that 2nd blue is up and the kill will put me over and set me up to provide a really strong gank top or mid.  That might just be smeh jungling on my part (just hitting 6 at 2nd blue), but I'm generally camping a bit as naut (think I played like 6 games as naut last night - 5/1). 

Anyway, in your mind, apparently naut does not get the 2nd blue under any circumstance or something.  In my mind, there are quite a few circumstances where I would.  The main reason, though, is who is the mid and what impact will it have on their lane. 

meh... I get what you are saying.  I'm really just addressing the level 2 blue the way I'm talking here.  Plenty of fine arguments for not taking buffs after that, though.  Graves needing blue... smeh.  I wouldn't go so far as to make it sound like a bad thing if you happen to be well farmed as naut, though.  AFAIK, you don't run the fellow with GP5 or GP10.  I guess the only thing I do different with naut is that I'm willing to camp a bit longer and wait for an opportunity usually. 

karl - do you really camp folks much at all when you jungle?  With naut, I'm often waiting out of sight for a good 20 seconds (by often, I really mean 2-3 times per game).

@Pacov

Blue donations are a tough call.  Mid Lee Sin/Rumble/Kat... huge waste in my opinion and part of the strength of sending these champs mid is that your jungler can have all the blues.  But Zed getting blue back in his OP heyday was obscenely good and taking it for yourself as Nautilus wouldn't be what's good for the team.  Gangplank mid?  That I don't know about... infinite harass/health sustain on a lane bully seems like a good thing to me but I don't know for sure.

Making calls on blue donations might be an issue with your team when it's based on your own view of balance, which isn't 100% accurate... like all of our views.  I don't think that you'd take it well if you were playing mid and your jungler wouldn't give you blue because he felt you weren't playing a T1 champ?

Well, that's the thing - I don't think there's a perfect way of dealing with the 2nd blue or even the when to hand off red scenario.  For instance, let's say karl wants to run udyr.  Now udyr is a mana whore and would benefit ALOT from having the 2nd blue.  If I'm running anivia, udyr should give it over.  If I'm being a sport, though, then I'd take a champ that isn't as dependent on the blue so he could take the 2nd one.  Naut certainly benefits from blue, but can manage his mana well enough that it isn't necessary.  With my naut example, though, I'm talking about a scenario where I can immediately go to lane with my ult if I take the 2nd blue.  W/o it, then I need to head some where else to get XP and then gank... which could put me out of position or be a missed opportunity.  Honestly, and likely sadly, most of my 2nd blue logic on naut comes from that level 6 mentality. 

Nautilus ganks are terrifying, he's almost as bad as Hec for being able to thrash even a warded lane.  Added to that, the asshole can tower dive at level 5 and go for the double even after they burn flash to get away...

More ganks shouldn't be a bad thing unless it's the difference between GP getting trashed by someone that will be a problem for the soon to be fed bot lane, or doing the trashing.

#gp-mid: 

Sure, Cow wasn't playing his strongest champs. But you also "stole" Karl's role. Karl can only play Cho in a solo lane (from what i've seen), and even though i do think he should branch out and generally has good jungle sense, occasionally he has unrealistic expectations from laners - so the expierence is good for him in some ways. But, from the get-go the roles were distributed in such a way you weren't playing for "best win chances".

#blue-donations:

Junglers can pretty much be seperated into one of 3 types:

1- AD junglers

these guys usually don't really need blue, but do get amplified somewhat. Nocturne loves the 20% CDR on his ult, Udyr is somewhat mana-gated midgame (though blue doesn't really help his ganks at all except the fact he has less mana problems while jungling).

i'm pretty sure Vi can solo dragon if she gets 2nd blue. 

While taking blue is a boost, they function adequately without it. 

2- Mana-Gated AP-based Junglers

Skarner, Hec, Fiddlesticks, Amumu, Naut, Diana

These guys get significantly amplified by getting 2nd blue. Their ults CD's are usually pretty long at rank 1 (but not rank 2/3). They have super fast clears if they are allowed to spam abilities, but mediocre otherwise, and so their clear speeds are way faster. Most critically, like you said, they hit level 6 if they take first blue and that lets them make a big power play rather than having to go to Red (and then being only at half-2/3rds mana). 

These junglers are typically where these "is blue mids or junglers" arguments typically revolve around.

3- HP Tanks

Sej, Zac, Voli, Cho

These guys really have no mana problems.

 If you are a #2 type jungler, you typically have a few options: 

1- Use 2/7/21 masteries instead of x/21/x. Those masteries are really good on those people.  

(speaking of which: don't use Legendary armor on anyone. It is 2/3.5/5% increase of the armor/mr you get on ITEMS+runes+masteries. It doesn't include your base. With your endgame build those 2 points were giving you 1.8 Armor and 2.7 MR - that's awful at level 18 for 2 mastery points when you could have gotten 1.5 Armor+MR at level 1 instead. Maybe just 1 point is okay because it gives a full 2% of both instead of a diminished 1.5% compared to the already-diminished flat 1.5 Armor/MR of just one). 

2- Build Mana/CDR:

You didn't build SotAG (10% CDR, HP with someone who has an HP ratio...). You did build Shrelias way later in the game for some reason.

Frozen Heart is also a really good item on these junglers that also gives a bajillion mana + CDR. You didn't build a Glacial Shroud. Now, Cho ended up building FH and so building a second one of those would have been bad. You should blame Karl for doing that. (AP Cho with blue will do more damage than jungle Naut with blue - having him take the blues while you built FH would have been more optimal).

 3- Take 2nd blue, make your power play, but give up everything afterwards. The funny thing is, there are really only two lanes you should make a power play if you take 2nd blue - botlane or midlane. If you kill the enemy mid lane, then the deficit has been made up (esp if your midlaner takes the kill + blue). If you get a good gank botlane, you can get dragon which also makes up the deficit  If you take blue then gank top... well you traded an advantage toplane for a disadvantage midlane. 

Note that giving mid blue is akin to constantly ganking them. The amount of pressure blue exerts is massive. A mid with blue can push to tower, then either roam or take Wraiths, depending on the situation. Additionally, giving blue mid gives a huge chunk of additional EXP just from blue. Remember if 2 people share EXP, they both get 70% of it. So if you give up blue, you lose 30% of your exp - and typically end up just a little short of level 6 which is a bummer.

But you're giving your mid an entire wave of EXP that they wouldn't have gotten. i have gotten 2 full levels against mids who weren't receiving blues by getting 2nd/3rd blue and taking wraiths. Without even ganking or anything you've put mid into a controlling and dominating position.

This is one of the reasons why it is a really good idea to give Energy-Users like Kennen, Zed, and Akali blue even though they don't have mana. They do benefit enormously from the levels (to prevent falling behind), and they still really really really really like the CDR and energy regen. So you should probably give them third blue. 

A midlaner that is a level behind is much weaker than a jungle that is a level behind. Because while the midlaner has to deal with someone actively trying to kill them, the jungler gets to mostly sit in the jungle and PvE. 

Of course, if your mid is losing really badly, or is against someone like Kennen (or Fiora) who can't easily push and probably isn't getting blue either, you should probably take the blue. 

The rational that Naut has awesome ganks with blue... well, even though your ganks are great and all... mid lanes are better. Mid lane has 1-3 levels on you, has just as much CC typically, and does about twice the damage. Even better than a midlane gank is a double gank with both jungle and mid. This can't happen if your mid is pinned to tower.

Falling behind in EXP? Most mids are fine with letting you take their mid farm while they do a gank on your behalf. Or letting you take their midlane while they take blue. 

If you mid is pinned to tower, and you get invaded/do invading/ they are doing dragon... they can't really react. They really can't just walk thru the minions - they'll get engaged on. They can take the long way around, but that adds 5 seconds of travel and the enemy mid is already 3-5 seconds ahead just by being in a better location in the lane. Even if they are able to react, your mid laner just lost about 100 gold + 1/3rd a level. It's basically like giving the enemy midlaner an assist each time your mid have to leave the lane while it is pushed to tower. 

#wards:

Pretty sure Ms Swan bought way too many pink wards that game. 15 pink wards???

well you want all the buffs all the time You take 17 minute reds, and you get pretty angry if you don't get 2nd blue when you're AP Yi. 

heh. 

karls usually workable out of mid as well, just not alot of depth in his character pool. 

I was actually thinking about this today.  Naut's pretty tanky already so going deep into the support tree would likely help alot.  Think I'm going to try this.

Buffs aren't really the junglers by default after the first pass - they are team resources.  By default, the 2nd blue goes to mid, and the 3rd red goes to ADC.

There are exceptions to this (like mana less mids, or if somebody is feeding too hard), but thats the rule of thumb.  And even in those cases, giving blue to the top lane (when on that side of the map) is often preferable.

The basic idea with 2nd blue is that a domination by either mid is the single most important factor in the mid game.  If either mid gets substantially ahead, everybody on the other team should feel great pain.  Especially the jungler - trust me, you don't want to be jungling when the other mid is fed as hell and wandering all over the map.

The best way of getting your mid way behind is to not give them blue, while their opponent does get blue.  Bad things happen then, and that extra level 6 gank you might get doesn't come close to making up for it.

In that game, blue should have gone to mid.  If you didn't want to give it to GP, it should have gone to me so that I could better prevent Kha from roaming, and be able to TP without giving up towers.

Udyr never gets second blue unless mid is manaless.  He doesn't benefit from the CDR really, and he doesn't need the extra xp much, so he misses out on much of the benefit.  He is actually one of the worst mana based junglers to take second blue (he should really be trying to steal opponents second blue anyway...), especially since reasonable early mana regen items like Philo and SS work well on him.

How much time I am willing to spend camping depends on a lot of things.  Major factors include my knowledge of where enemy wards might be and how good I think that my teammate is at supporting ganks.

I can play a reasonable variety of (older) mids since I used to play mostly mid a long time ago.  I might have some problems against more recent, aggressive opponents like Zed or KhaZix since I'm not used to playing against them 1v1.

My top choices are limited, but I can play a few things other than Cho (Irelia, Jax, Shen, Nasus, plus a few odd ball old school ones).  I will usually pick Cho if I don't have a good feel for the potential matchups though.  In that game I took Cho because I didn't know my matchup for sure.

Well, usually i'd say 4th would go to ADC. At the 18-20 mark laning is still happening at times and even if a group is happening a lot of it is sieging, and ADCs aren't usually "going" quite enough. Putting red on a melee diver like toplane works better imo. 

zac op...super long initiates

Was in a ranked game when a massive wave of crashes crashed like 4 or 5 or more people...didn't notice until too late and got in game at 3 mins.  Their support and our adc same, some others also.  Loss prevented.

Earlier game our ez dc for the entire game and maybe that cause by ^?

http://www.rifftrax.com/rifftrax/battlefield-earth

OK - so I'm getting this.  It's the guys that do mst3k doing that to battlefield earth.  I'm going to buy it and then I'm going to stream it on my channel.  I'll let you know when I'm thinking of doing it.  BFE is one of the worst movies ever.  Pete and I were talking about it some on stream tonight (if you care, pull up tonights vid and scroll to the last 10 minutes or so).  Anyway, I saw they did a rifftracks and the full movie is actually on youtube, so I'm thinking I'll stream the whole thing... might put skype up as well so we can interact... but really - it will be quite excellent - so make some popcorn and settle in for an epic.  I'll let you know when I sort this (eg have to get the riffttrax and test out), then its just a matter of when I want to stream it.